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Swiss voters approve constitutional ban of minarets

misterman said:
Obviously you're not interested in honest debate. Never mind.
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You are argueing that existing structures be torn down as opposed to forbidding certain new structures to be built.....;)
 
Partisan said:
You are argueing that existing structures be torn down as opposed to forbidding certain new structures to be built.....;)
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Nope. Never said that. Nothing even close to it.
 
Dutch said:
In the us we have a representational form of democracy. In switzerland they have a more direct form of democracy. I prefer their form of democracy.
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Pure democracy is a bad idea, it will always lead to bad places.
 
lizzie said:
What it primarily boils down to (imo) is that if people want to move to a different country, with different cultural values and mores, then those immigrants should not expect their culture to be accepted into the mainstream. If I moved to Saudi Arabia, I would expect to live by Saudi customs. If I was not able to accept the customs, I would not move there.
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^^^ I totally agree with this......:)
 
Partisan said:
Sorry, Jackboot said that...
My apology for attributing that comment to you.....:3oops:
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I was only inquiring if they had planned to remove current structures, and if all like structures were included?
 
Councilman said:
Until education takes control and stops the uncontrolled spread of lies about Islam such as it being a Religion of peace this ban will be no more that a stop gap measure.
Sharia law is being pushed in nations around the world, and once in place all is lost, and other Religions will be no more than a memory because history will be changed and it will one be as if it never existed.

Muslim Demographics Video
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Bigotry raises its ugly head...:censored:censored

As for the Swiss... Sarcastic clap.
:sarcasticclap
 
What guest would be so presumptuous to insist that his host rearrange his furniture....:confused:
 
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misterman said:
Okay.

Do you believe that all people should have certain rights, like Americans do? Or do you believe that a government should have total, unlimited power?

Just being a democracy isn't enough. There's that tyranny of the majority thing.
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Again, are we talking about america....or switzerland? Are you seriously trying to impose your american liberal values on another country? Why? Switzerland is light years ahead of us. I'd say we have no right to criticize this move by the people of switzerland. No right at all.
 
American said:
I'm glad you finally support prayer in school.
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They are two different issues.

The swiss outlawing the PRIVATE building of minarets would be the equivalent of telling someone they couldn't have a cross on their PRIVATE property.

You need to learn the difference between public and private property.
 
Partisan said:
Sorry, Jackboot said that...
My apology for attributing that comment to you.....:3oops:
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Okay, no problem, mistakes happen when the fur is flying.
 
Ikari said:
Pure democracy is a bad idea, it will always lead to bad places.
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I say the same thing about socialism. Personally, I'm all for direct democracy. It leads to people having their own intersts being taken seriously by their politicians.
 
Dutch said:
Again, are we talking about america....or switzerland? Are you seriously trying to impose your american liberal values on another country? Why? Switzerland is light years ahead of us. I'd say we have no right to criticize this move by the people of switzerland. No right at all.
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I think I was very clear.

I am not talking about American liberal values. I'm talking about values that we hold to be universal. If you disagree, that's fine. Let's first settle whether we can apply ANY values, or whether a government can have total control.

Do you think expecting the Iranians and Saudis not to force women into burqas and chop off heads is applying American liberal values? What about when we complained about the Soviet treatment of their people? Or the Nazis?
 
misterman said:
I think I was very clear.

I am not talking about American liberal values. I'm talking about values that we hold to be universal. If you disagree, that's fine. Let's first settle whether we can apply ANY values, or whether a government can have total control.

Do you think expecting the Iranians and Saudis not to force women into burqas and chop off heads is applying American liberal values? What about when we complained about the Soviet treatment of their people? Or the Nazis?
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More melodrama...
 
This article is very telling and disturbing. The double standard by the Muslim world is appalling. In the Muslim countries it's rare for Christians to have full autonomy. The heart of Islam, Saudi Arabia, fully suppresses Christain expression. Yet Muslim leaders cry foul when a non-Muslim nation bans only one particular structure that is associated with the more theocratic aspect of Islam.

And, what does the Swiss minister in this article fear? She states that this is a security risk to have enacted this ban! It sounds as if she fears inciting Muslim reactionaries. In other words, we in the West should bow to terrorism.

BBC News - Minaret ban 'a security risk' - Swiss minister
 
I, for one, tired of Muslims crying for tolerance from the already tolerant West, while they, themselves, stay mostly silent when their co-religionists commit atrocities and repressions.
 
MyOwnDrum said:
This article is very telling and disturbing. The double standard by the Muslim world is appalling. In the Muslim countries it's rare for Christians to have full autonomy. The heart of Islam, Saudi Arabia, fully suppresses Christain expression. Yet Muslim leaders cry foul when a non-Muslim nation bans only one particular structure that is associated with the more theocratic aspect of Islam.
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You're making the same old mistake - talking as if there were only a few "Muslim leaders" and they all talk with one voice.

I have actually heard Muslim leaders from Switzerland talking about this on the radio. The certainly didn't approve of oppression in Muslim countries.

(As for "one particular structure that is associated with the more theocratic aspect of Islam" - no. It's nothing more than part of a mosque, much like a church spire. Hardly "theocratic" at all.)
 
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misterman said:
I think I was very clear.

I am not talking about American liberal values. I'm talking about values that we hold to be universal. If you disagree, that's fine. Let's first settle whether we can apply ANY values, or whether a government can have total control.
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Yes you are and american liberal values aren't universal. Once again, this isn't control by government. It's the will of the people to decide what is and isn't permissable inside their borders.

Do you think expecting the Iranians and Saudis not to force women into burqas and chop off heads is applying American liberal values? What about when we complained about the Soviet treatment of their people? Or the Nazis?
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The iranians and saudis do these things because it's part of their culture. They care little for what american liberals think. You are aware we were a valued ally of the soviets during roosevelt's administration aren't you? We didn't complain about them during the ww2. As for hitler he had his admirers before the war, think kennedy here. :mrgreen:
 
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Dutch said:
Yes you are and american liberal values aren't universal.
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Please read more carefully, I didn't say that. I asked you if there are any universal values.

Once again, this isn't control by government. It's the will of the people to decide what is and isn't permissable inside their borders.
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No, it's government control. Just because the will of (some of the) people is involved doesn't change that. I explained this to you.

The iranians and saudis do these things because it's part of their culture. They care little for what american liberals think. You are aware we were a valued ally of the soviets during roosevelt's administration aren't you? We didn't complain about them during the ww2.
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God, you're a massive question-dodger. (I love the liberal-sounding "part of their culture" thing though!)

Answer these questions please:

1. Do you fully approve of or have no complaint about what the Iranians and Saudis do?

2. Did you approve of or have no complaint about the Soviet treatment of their people?
 
MyOwnDrum said:
I, for one, tired of Muslims crying for tolerance from the already tolerant West, while they, themselves, stay mostly silent when their co-religionists commit atrocities and repressions.
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As if you can sum up a billion people in one sentence.

Plenty of them speak up against atrocities and oppressions. You just never notice.
 
Dutch said:
Yes you are and american liberal values aren't universal. Once again, this isn't control by government. It's the will of the people to decide what is and isn't permissable inside their borders.



The iranians and saudis do these things because it's part of their culture. They care little for what american liberals think. You are aware we were a valued ally of the soviets during roosevelt's administration aren't you? We didn't complain about them during the ww2. As for hitler he had his admirers before the war, think kennedy here. :mrgreen:
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"The enemy of my enemy is my friend" applies here....;)
Old Joey K was after profit, just like granddaddy Bush....;)
 
misterman said:
As if you can sum up a billion people in one sentence.

Plenty of them speak up against atrocities and oppressions. You just never notice.
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Maybe they need to speak louder....
Enough to drown out the death cries of 3,000 innocent victims, for starters....;)
 
Dutch said:
Yes you are and american liberal values aren't universal. Once again, this isn't control by government. It's the will of the people to decide what is and isn't permissable inside their borders.
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Work on your reasoning processes, buddy.

The ban is the reflection of the will of the people enacted into law. Laws are government activities, and thus the new building codes are adjusting the control the government has over new construction.

Dutch said:
You are aware we were a valued ally of the soviets during roosevelt's administration aren't you? We didn't complain about them during the ww2.
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Pay more attention to a man named Patton.
 
misterman said:
As if you can sum up a billion people in one sentence.

Plenty of them speak up against atrocities and oppressions. You just never notice.
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I disagree that muslims leaders have done all they can to help quell the violence we see all over the world. In fact, I see more apologists then anything else, from one corner of the world to the other. I guess you missed the recent muslim march to DC, the signs, the rhetoric was anything but peaceful, helpful, it was just more of the same.

All that said, I still do not agree with this decision, but this is europe, and they have been slipping for sometime now, I am just glad I live in this country, under this constitution.
 
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