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Thread: Economy limping back to strength

  1. #201
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    Re: Economy limping back to strength

    Quote Originally Posted by EpicDude86 View Post
    What percentage of the population is on welfare in this country? Then what percentage of that percentage are the ones who commit crimes to supplement their welfare incomes?

    Then tell me that number has a significant effect on crime rates on a larger scale than just neighborhood by neighborhood, and then we'll talk.
    More research you ask?

    Poverty makes thieves and thieves hamper economic growth. We study these linkages in a model of modern sector job creation. Job creation has two effects. Higher labor demand tends to lower crime while higher output gives more to steal, tending to increase crime. At low levels of modernization the second effect dominates and, as a consequence, the model has decreasing returns to scale. At higher levels of modernization there is increasing returns to scale due to declining crime. The economy may end up in a poverty trap with high crime and low production or obtain full modernization with low crime rates. The danger of ending up in a poverty trap has implications for economic policies. We show, for instance, that a reform, intended to improve efficiency, may throw the economy into a vicious circle of increasing crime and stagnation if implemented too fast.
    source
    It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion.
    "Wealth of Nations," Book V, Chapter II, Part II, Article I, pg.911

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    Re: Economy limping back to strength

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldenboy219 View Post
    More research you ask?



    source
    The answers to my questions are not in your report. It's also critical that I don't give you MY numbers, I want YOU to research this. From reliable sources, if you would be so kind. So once again I ask:

    1. Please tell me what percentage of the population is on welfare.

    2. Of that percentage, how many commit crimes to supplement their income when they cannot make their money last.

    3. What is that number (of people or crimes) in comparison with overall crime rates.

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    Re: Economy limping back to strength

    Quote Originally Posted by EpicDude86 View Post
    The answers to my questions are not in your report. It's also critical that I don't give you MY numbers, I want YOU to research this. From reliable sources, if you would be so kind. So once again I ask:

    1. Please tell me what percentage of the population is on welfare.

    2. Of that percentage, how many commit crimes to supplement their income when they cannot make their money last.

    3. What is that number (of people or crimes) in comparison with overall crime rates.
    Your questions have very little meaning in regards to the discussion. I am not claiming that the majority of criminality is embedded in the welfare population.

    I am stating an undeniable fact: Increased poverty (AKA intense wealth inequality) puts upward pressure on criminality.
    It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion.
    "Wealth of Nations," Book V, Chapter II, Part II, Article I, pg.911

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    Re: Economy limping back to strength

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldenboy219 View Post
    Your questions have very little meaning in regards to the discussion. I am not claiming that the majority of criminality is embedded in the welfare population.

    I am stating an undeniable fact: Increased poverty (AKA intense wealth inequality) puts upward pressure on criminality.
    Fine, don't answer my questions. But do not claim a 'victory' if you're not willing to defend it. You can't just take one study (by reading the abstract by the way, cause I know you didn't purchase that article) and claim that it is significant when it's really just being taken out of context with the big picture, which is the ENTIRE crime rate.
    Last edited by EpicDude86; 12-03-09 at 11:54 PM.

  5. #205
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    Re: Economy limping back to strength

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldenboy219 View Post
    I am stating an undeniable fact: Increased poverty (AKA intense wealth inequality) puts upward pressure on criminality.
    Poverty is wealth inequality? I don't like that definition. The impoverished of today could probably be the elites of the Classical period. Poverty should be the subsistence level.

    And I assume that you're working on a response to my other post?

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

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    Re: Economy limping back to strength

    Epic,

    Areas that are impoverished have far higher crime rates (along with more police presence) than higher income areas. Your questions are a red herring, as they do nothing to strengthen your premise; they only shift the debate.

    The fact remains: poverty induces crime, and poverty is determined primarily by income.

    Both you and Tony have argued that it is "optimal" to eliminate our social welfare system, of which i have responded that in doing so, we will increase the crime burden (although it is not felt in proportion). The impoverished face a greater burden than the rich actually.

    Have i argued that welfare traps do not exist? Of course not.
    It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion.
    "Wealth of Nations," Book V, Chapter II, Part II, Article I, pg.911

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    Re: Economy limping back to strength

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldenboy219 View Post
    Have i argued that welfare traps do not exist? Of course not.
    Being poor without welfare. Risk of committing a crime is p1.

    Being poor with welfare. Risk of committing a crime is p2.

    p1>p2.

    The number of poor people when welfare does not exist. n1.

    The number of poor people when welfare does exist. n2.

    n2>n1.

    The total number of poor people committing crime: np.

    So the question becomes, which is greater, n1p1, or n2p2. It's impossible to prove either way (because theoretically it would be better to pick the option that lowers crime, although even this I may have a problem with), and so the moral argument sways the decision away from the conclusion that we should use welfare to deter crime.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

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    Re: Economy limping back to strength

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    Being poor without welfare. Risk of committing a crime is p1.

    Being poor with welfare. Risk of committing a crime is p2.

    p1>p2.

    The number of poor people when welfare does not exist. n1.

    The number of poor people when welfare does exist. n2.

    n2>n1.

    The total number of poor people committing crime: np.

    So the question becomes, which is greater, n1p1, or n2p2. It's impossible to prove either way (because theoretically it would be better to pick the option that lowers crime, although even this I may have a problem with), and so the moral argument sways the decision away from the conclusion that we should use welfare to deter crime.
    Simple deduction will not achieve the result you desire. I am not here to play the morality game (morals are completely subjective).

    Are you familiar with the efficiency wage hypothesis? (hint: this could be a set up, so choose your words carefully).
    It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion.
    "Wealth of Nations," Book V, Chapter II, Part II, Article I, pg.911

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    Re: Economy limping back to strength

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldenboy219 View Post
    Simple deduction will not achieve the result you desire. I am not here to play the morality game (morals are completely subjective).
    I'd dispute that, but anyway, it was meant to show that a definite answer cannot be found.

    Are you familiar with the efficiency wage hypothesis? (hint: this could be a set up, so choose your words carefully).
    Nope.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

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    Re: Economy limping back to strength

    Question: What is the primary determinant for having an income?
    It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion.
    "Wealth of Nations," Book V, Chapter II, Part II, Article I, pg.911

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