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Thread: the President o f Europe

  1. #31
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    Re: the President o f Europe

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    LOL you need your school money back then.

    Lets see where this "self determination" aspect in US policy was put in place.

    Half of central and south America.
    Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Italy, ...

    ahh fek it, too many countries to mention in just the last 60 years.

    US "Self determination" starts and stops in what is the US self interest at the time.
    I cannot argue with that, we have inserted ourselves in countries where we had no business being, but that certainly does not include every conflict you listed. Just as I find it hard to stomach, too much criticism coming from Europe, we all have made mistakes, and will continue to do so.

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    Re: the President o f Europe

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    LOL you need your school money back then.

    Lets see where this "self determination" aspect in US policy was put in place.

    Half of central and south America.
    Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Italy, ...

    ahh fek it, too many countries to mention in just the last 60 years.

    US "Self determination" starts and stops in what is the US self interest at the time.
    Countries acting out of self interest is a given, actions to secure the interests of other people are very rare. The US is well ahead even with all their mistakes. Don't believe it were americans who colonized half the world, but after WO2 they did pressure european countries to leave their colonies. So policy-wise they have done a lot better than european countries. Also, France still likes to meddle in Africa, they havent stopped.

  3. #33
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    Re: the President o f Europe

    Most of the worlds geopolitical disputes stem from the colony era.
    "If religious instruction were not allowed until the child had attained the age of reason, we would be living in quite a different world" - Christopher Hitchens
    > Good to be back, but I'm only visiting for a few weeks. <

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    Re: the President o f Europe

    Quote Originally Posted by kaya'08 View Post
    Most of the worlds geopolitical disputes stem from the colony era.
    Some go even way farther back.
    Look at Greece and Turkey...

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    Re: the President o f Europe

    Quote Originally Posted by Jackboot View Post
    I cannot argue with that, we have inserted ourselves in countries where we had no business being, but that certainly does not include every conflict you listed.
    It does, sadly. The US actively intervened in the 1948 general election in Italy. It put in power the Shah of Iran and kept him in power.

    Just as I find it hard to stomach, too much criticism coming from Europe, we all have made mistakes, and will continue to do so.
    The problem is not that Europe has criticism over the US, but that the US more than often refuses to admit they were just as involved and wrong with their policies.

    Just look at this thread. American's blaming all the ills of the world basically on European colonial times. Eh? Come on.. it was not Europe that put the Shah in power for god sake (although the British helped). It was not Europe that removed Saddam. It was not Europe that "influenced" the politics in central and south America from 1945 and onwards. In fact I would claim that the US has attempted and directly influenced politics in other countries even under Bush.. I remember a certain President openly backing Howard in Australia... so much for not butting into the politics of other nations.
    Last edited by PeteEU; 11-28-09 at 06:25 AM.
    PeteEU

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    Re: the President o f Europe

    Quote Originally Posted by Djoop View Post
    Countries acting out of self interest is a given, actions to secure the interests of other people are very rare. The US is well ahead even with all their mistakes. Don't believe it were americans who colonized half the world, but after WO2 they did pressure european countries to leave their colonies.
    Oh I agree, and yet American did not leave hers...

    So policy-wise they have done a lot better than european countries.
    That is a hyperhole. The US has 250 years of history, most European countries have 1500+ years of history. Of course there will be more cases of "issues" with Europeans.. we did control world trade and the world for over 1000 years after all. Where as self determination is a relative new idea, mostly spurred after WW2... even in the US.

    Also, France still likes to meddle in Africa, they havent stopped.
    I agree, but in most cases they are asked by local governments to come and help or have been sent in as part of a peace accord. They dont go around invading countries like the US.
    PeteEU

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    Re: the President o f Europe

    Quote Originally Posted by kaya'08 View Post
    Most of the worlds geopolitical disputes stem from the colony era.
    They go further back. Many of the geopolitical disputes go back to pre colonial days and are rooted in ancient tribal conflicts.

    Look at Iraq. I know American's would claim that it is all Europe's fault that there are troubles there. Well that is because they dont know the history of the region. While Iraq is a new idea, having a country in the area called Iraq is not. In fact that is where civilization got started. But the conflict is not rooted in colonial issues, but tribal/religious issues that go back far far back in time... long before the European colonial powers carved up the region.

    In Africa most conflicts are between tribes and not countries. The only "colonial era" issues is that the countries were formed after the colonial powers left, and do not take into account tribal boundaries, but the conflicts themselves are not per say because of the countries colonial past. That saying I dont deny that it has some influence on events, but at the core it is far older conflicts we are talking about. The Congo and Rwanda are classic examples.

    The only "colonial" conflicts I can put my finger on are those in South and Central America. They are for the most part not tribal, or natives vs colonialists (although some are), but because Spain did not define the borders well enough when it left its colonies.

    So blame Europe's colonial past for what it actually got wrong, not for what already existed in the area before they got there.
    PeteEU

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    Re: the President o f Europe

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Oh I agree, and yet American did not leave hers...
    Name me one. Also, name me one case of an european country rebuilding a country they defeated in a war.

    That is a hyperhole. The US has 250 years of history, most European countries have 1500+ years of history. Of course there will be more cases of "issues" with Europeans.. we did control world trade and the world for over 1000 years after all. Where as self determination is a relative new idea, mostly spurred after WW2... even in the US.
    No it's not m8. I can only think of one country the US tried to colonize. 250 years or not, they have done a hell of a lot more for the right to self determination than any european country in 1500+ years of history. If they wouldn't have pressured my country to leave Indonesia, and that's only one example, we'd still be there. Don't get me wrong, doesn't mean the US is above criticism, not at all. Just said that this isn't the best subject to compare US/EU.

    I agree, but in most cases they are asked by local governments to come and help or have been sent in as part of a peace accord. They dont go around invading countries like the US.
    O really? Please Pete, take a look at the situation in Ivory Coast, Chad and the Central African Republic and give your opinion an honest review.
    Last edited by Djoop; 11-28-09 at 08:11 AM.

  9. #39
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    Re: the President o f Europe

    Quote Originally Posted by Telecaster View Post
    Yeah whatever. Just keep workin' it. I'll be watching.
    Perhaps you havent been watching Europe the past 10-15 years. A lot of progress had been made not only in Europe but all our neighbours as well, and sourrounding regions.
    Europe is illegally occupied by the US

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    Re: the President o f Europe

    Quote Originally Posted by Djoop View Post
    Buy a history book Pete, wrong isseu to compare morals on. The right to self determination is an american concept, and it only took us 2 centuries to really embrace it.
    What? That is absurd. Its not American, it has existed for thousands of years.
    Europe is illegally occupied by the US

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