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Thread: Navy SEALs Face Assault Charges for Capturing Most-Wanted Terrorist

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    Re: Navy SEALs Face Assault Charges for Capturing Most-Wanted Terrorist

    Quote Originally Posted by the makeout hobo View Post
    What makes you think Obama is directly involved at all? I'm sure he has better things to do than fret over every little move the military justice system makes.
    The same thing that made people demand that Bush was personally involved in everything. Partisan slavery.

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    Re: Navy SEALs Face Assault Charges for Capturing Most-Wanted Terrorist

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post


    I am just wondering when that line turns from valuing world opinion, to acting in the best interests of the United States?
    It's already happened. Fallujah I morphed into Fallujah II. For the sake of world opinion, more had to die later. This is what happens when civilian non-players dictate military tactics to the military players. With today's media and the global shock of what war is, it would have taken American forces an extra two years to reach Berlin.

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    Re: Navy SEALs Face Assault Charges for Capturing Most-Wanted Terrorist

    Quote Originally Posted by GySgt View Post
    Perhaps a little less telling me who you think I am and a bit more seeing through the clouded "bull****" that covers the truth may help you see things clearer. You see, I am not interested in the warm and fuzzy. 18 years of this has a way of creating clarity.

    1) The military serves individuals. Not our country. Or have you been receiving phone calls from the White House and Pentagon over the last two decades? Rumsfeld, who couldn't find himself humble enough to listen to the battle hardened generals and tacticians who tried to advise him, have you or any other citizen on speed dial? I wasn't consulted. The only way our politicians have your interests at heart is if it coincides with their personal political agendas.
    I would not think I would have to explain basic high school civics to you, but you seem to have missed the explanation of our government. We elect our leaders to serve us. When they do so poorly, we remove them and install new ones. No, we do not make the individual decisions, which would be impossible for practice reasons, we choose those who do, with the hope they will do the best they can and represent our wishes. The military directly serves the government, and through the government, the people. I and every one of the citizens in this country is, indirectly, your boss. Cutesy expressions about not having every citizen on speed dial do not change the fact that you do, in fact, work for us(and in a way, for yourself).

    a. An inexperienced Clinton completely bought into the Washington sentiments of the post-Cold War. The idea that "our wars were over" saturated our bureaucracies. He found no shame in continuing the stripping down of the military, while riding the backs of it to suit his needs to be the "humanitarian" president. We were dropped into situations we were ill prepared for and under trained for. In the mean time, he funded ridiculous theories of non-lethal warfare along with the RMA (and the Rumsfeld clan). It would take him most of his presidency to figure out how to work the military and how to fit it towards his views of the world...not America's.
    I am not going to defend Clinton's handling of the military, beyond quickly saying that he was following the lead of an experienced military veteran(Bush the elder), which is not an excuse. However, once again, we chose Clinton to serve us as President, and we chose him to return to that job. If there is a blame, it is with us, the people. Are you going to declare the electorate of the US "the enemy" now?

    [quote]b. Bush put all of his faith into non-experienced jack asses who were more inclined to test their theories of warfare rather than conduct warfare in according to the warfighter's advice. Gulf War bombings were supposed to relate to unconditional surrenders later via Shock-and-Awe tactics in Iraq. The bare minimum of troop strength was all that was needed in our future wars because technology alone was our ultimate tool. These are theories not meant to serve America, but the agenda of individuals seeking to validate their retarded visions. Was the military serving America's needs or a few buffoons in the first half of Iraq? Certainly the military spent the latter half serving our own needs rather than the average American who merely criticized us throughout the first half. {/quote]

    Again, I am not going to defend Bush, but he was the chosen representative of the people. We chose him not once, but twice. AS a liberal I many not like that, but I cannot deny it. Bush is no more "the enemy" than Clinton was.

    Few politicians know what they are doing and they are out numbered by the idiots. The only difference between the tribes of Washington and the tribes of the Middle East is a lack of will to start murdering each other. Exhausting the military with broken toys all over creation was just fine by the Democrats as long as Clinton pushed the buttons. Exhausting the military with an abundance of toys it can't use was just fine by Republicans as long as Bush was pushing the buttons. These may as well be enemies.
    You do love your exaggeration and hyperbole. If you really believe that is the only difference, you are so clearly blinded by your odd world view that shapes how you view everything. Our government is far from ideal, but it is still worlds better than any of those found in the middle east, and there are any number of differences, not just in how the leaders get to power, but what they have to do to keep it, and how they choose to serve, and the limitations on them.


    2) The media is no more interested in truth than it is about taking responsibility for it's destructive spins and tales. Making money is all it is interested in and this is why they often jump to conclusions before they realize complete story. Notice how quickly the media moves on from covering the deeds of our enemies. Notice how long and exhaustingly "thorough" it is when it comes to shoving our own into the spotlight. Hanging Americans from a bridge and a beheaded soldier a few days coverage, but Abu-Ghraib? After almost a year of intensive spotlighting and coverage, who's to say how much harder they made it for the troop on the ground who had to deal with locals who were continually enraged over a never ending display of photographs (most of which was the same old photographs). And any Nazi/Gulag/torturous story about GITMO was surely worthy of the media's intense focus (as long as Bush was in the White House). How many died because Middle Eastern non-players picked up the latest news paper and decided that this weeks printing was the straw that broke the camel's back? How many witnessed our own politicians remarking exaggeratingly about GITMO for the sake of politicial points earned the death of Americans in the war zone? Did Americans get bombarded with tales and stories of how badly the Germans were being treated by our soldiers in WWII Europe? Or how the Japanese were being denied the comforts of home while imprisoned? Did reporters shove discretion aside as haphazardly as they do today while seeking the latest military scandal to splash out into the world? I wonder how Americans would have taken to a reporter drawing out military plans regarding Normandy in 1944 on international TV. Back then, our media was responsibile. Reporters understood that they were American citizens first. Today, our media rush to expose every nasty detail of combat so that the American people can demand a cease fire. A great example was Fallujah. The media won Fallujah I and offerred our enemy a reprieve. Fallujah II was the result of a military racing to beat the news cameras. Another example is Najaaf. Al-Sadr would have been killed in 2004 were it not for the media wolves (your "watchdogs"). He was spared and he went on to engineer the developments of a Shia militia that would slaughter Sunni and Kurds while we watched and the irresponsible media labeled it a "civil war." We would go on to be criticized as genocidal maniacs by the global masses because they slaughtered each other.

    The media gets to wash their hands because people insist that they are merely impartial "watchdogs" reporting the truth to the people. It doesn't matter that they don't even understand what they are printing. It doesn't matter that inexperienced civilians get to dictate their opinions in mass over things they don't understand. It doesn't matter how much harder this makes it on our troops to do their jobs. You stated it yourself...."world opinion matters." The media's behaviors and the reaction of civilians to it have caused more death and destruction that Rumsfeld. The day may come that we have to start considering the news cameras as combatants in the war zone.
    Covering the actions of our troops is not a bad thing, and if our troops do wrong(as at Abu Graibh), then that should be covered too. Being a soldier is not a free pass. It's very fashionable among a certain element to blame everything on the media, and you certainly seem to be in that camp, but there is a simple question to ask: would this country be better off without a news media, or with a government controlled news media, or with the free press we have now? Personally, I would choose the latter, despite it's faults. It's easy to sit back and bitch, not so easy to find improvements. You seem to choose the easy way out here.

    You see, I do think about these things. Maybe you should start. But you really don't have to do you? You can afford to exist within the confines of the warm and fuzzy.
    I am not seeing much effort in thought. You talk in sound bites, repeating the same hawkish sentiments I have heard all my life, with nothing new to add. Your ego and your preconceived notions seem to be inhibiting your ability to think clearly.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

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    Re: Navy SEALs Face Assault Charges for Capturing Most-Wanted Terrorist

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    You are right, you didn't, but I interpreted this to mean that some type of line has America's interests at heart, and the other must cede to world opinion:



    I am just wondering when that line turns from valuing world opinion, to acting in the best interests of the United States?


    j-mac
    You are making desperate attempts to twist my words. We are a sovereign country, and we will always work for our best interests. Sometimes that interest includes having good relations with the rest of the world.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

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    Re: Navy SEALs Face Assault Charges for Capturing Most-Wanted Terrorist

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    It's easy to sit back and bitch, not so easy to find improvements.
    The military is continually improving. It does not need a bunch of civilians reminding our enemy of our mistakes 12 months later so as to make our job that much harder. It does not need the 100th same photo splashed across international news. And it certainly doesn't need people rejoicing and defending the media for just "doing their jobs." I see that you choose to ignore the responsible journalism of our grandfathers when defending the depravity that reports today. I guess as long as that cash cow isn't squeezed dry thay are honorouble journalists no matter how many more American get to die for the constant reminders.

    "Sitting back and bitching?" I still serve. I hardly sit back. Perhaps it's the media that needs to be held accountable for a change. Perhaps it's the average American who needs to check his position and shake himself up a bit.....or do the job for himself to appreciate the crap the regular troop has to endure from his own people. Maybe instead of relying on the media to deliver them what our troops go through while they demand impractical conclusions they could enlist and experience for themselves. And maybe those who served briefly in the past would support troops better by not cheering for those who make things harder than they have to.

    I'll choose the practical reality every time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress
    Covering the actions of our troops is not a bad thing, and if our troops do wrong(as at Abu Graibh), then that should be covered too.and if our troops do wrong(as at Abu Graibh)...
    Covered like anything else? You do realize that two weeks before Abu-Ghraib broke, two soldiers were taken prisoner and had their heads cut off. You do realize that this story took center stage for the world, thanks to our own American media, for the better part of a year and completely dismissed those two soldiers as soon as the media swarm began? Don't pretend that you stand for some noble sense of media coverage as if the military is asking for a hand out. Covering the actions of our troops is hardly all they do. They seek imjperfection and ride it until enough troops are dead over it and until the last penny can be squeezed.

    By the way, let's not pretend that Abu-Graib wasn't about a bunch of civilians playing soldier. And let's not pretend that 2 years after the event every Muslim in the region had to be reminded.

    Just think...if we just drop a couple atomic bombs in the Middle East we could be called "great" like our grandfathers.
    Last edited by MSgt; 11-28-09 at 11:20 PM.

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    Re: Navy SEALs Face Assault Charges for Capturing Most-Wanted Terrorist

    Quote Originally Posted by GySgt View Post
    The military is continually improving. It does not need a bunch of civilians reminding our enemy of our mistakes 12 months later so as to make our job that much harder. It does not need the 100th same photo splashed across international news. And it certainly doesn't need people rejoicing and defending the media for just "doing their jobs." I see that you choose to ignore the responsible journalism of our grandfathers when defending the depravity that reports today. I guess as long as that cash cow isn't squeezed dry thay are honorouble journalists no matter how many more American get to die for the constant reminders.

    "Sitting back and bitching?" I still serve. I hardly sit back. Perhaps it's the media that needs to be held accountable for a change. Perhaps it's the average American who needs to check his position and shake himself up a bit.....or do the job for himself to appreciate the crap the regular troop has to endure from his own people. Maybe instead of relying on the media to deliver them what our troops go through while they demand impractical conclusions they could enlist and experience for themselves. And maybe those who served briefly in the past would support troops better by not cheering for those who make things harder than they have to.

    I'll choose the practical reality every time.



    Covered like anything else? You do realize that two weeks before Abu-Ghraib broke, two soldiers were taken prisoner and had their heads cut off. You do realize that this story took center stage for the world, thanks to our own American media, for the better part of a year and completely dismissed those two soldiers as soon as the media swarm began? Don't pretend that you stand for some noble sense of media coverage as if the military is asking for a hand out. Covering the actions of our troops is hardly all they do. They seek imjperfection and ride it until enough troops are dead over it and until the last penny can be squeezed.

    By the way, let's not pretend that Abu-Graib wasn't about a bunch of civilians playing soldier. And let's not pretend that 2 years after the event every Muslim in the region had to be reminded.

    Just think...if we just drop a couple atomic bombs in the Middle East we could be called "great" like our grandfathers.
    Damn, that is quite a statement, true, but you just never hear that kind of honesty today!

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    Re: Navy SEALs Face Assault Charges for Capturing Most-Wanted Terrorist

    Quote Originally Posted by Jackboot View Post
    Damn, that is quite a statement, true, but you just never hear that kind of honesty today!
    That's because people are conditioned to see things a certain way. Dresden bombing? Hiroshima and Nagasaki? All efforts performed by heroes who fought for their country and brought home victory. This is proof that victory is always forgiven. Funny how a black eye or a fat lip or a frat party Abu-Graib scandal today is supposed to drag us through the mud as humanities ultimate evil. I'm sure our the Greatest Generation treated the Japanese prioners (who tortured and beheaded their prisoners of war) and German prisoners (who starved and torched their prisoners of war) with the utmost respect and gentleness. You know...because they were the "Greatest."

    We have become a civilization who enjoys watching the violence from the seats of the coloseum. The "thumbs up" or the "thumbs down" come in the form of the disgruntled, bittered, and ignorant masses who cling to what the world may think of them. We ignore the absolute depravity of foreign troops while allowing the foreign citizens of those troops to chastise ours for minor mistakes and criticizing alongside them.. We seek to destroy careers over mistakes or even less than perfect results in war for the sake of an image people on the outside really don’t care about either way,… yet criticize.

    And before Redress drops in and thinks she has thought this through and criticizes me…

    We are a civilization that loves our cinema. We like our Saving Private Ryans which show our past troop’s bravery and honor. We love our Band of Brothers and our Dirty Dozens that show courage and valor to bring victory. Even the comical and ridiculous Inglorious Bastards bring the cheers for our Greatest Generation. We love our John Waynes and Audey Murphys. But what does the troop get today? Are there any films that don’t show a military mind on the verge of madness? Or a military blunder? Any military movies about Vietnam forward that focus on the good old American drive to succeed in war for the audience to cheer? Or are they all focused on the individual mental “torture” of the troop for having to be victims of our own government’s tyranny? Poor Hawkeye (M.A.S.H.)… Poor Rambo. Gunny Highway (Heartbreak Ridge) was a drunk who couldn’t perform in civilian life. Even the Gulf War got a Hollywood shot of Bull**** with Jarhead for the masses to take pity on. And Iraq? Wait and see how Hollywood depicts the troop experience and thereby prescribing the American mindset. Or are we already seeing this?

    Hollywood has found that people seem more interested in the conspiracy or the fragile, weak, and rebellious mind of the military man fighting (against his will often enough) for his country. Politicians strip victory away from our military (Fallujah I) and offer success to another enemy (Iran). The media ignores the decapitation of servicemen and choose to earn their dimes on the mistakes of the military instead to a never ending result. But after all of this we are supposed to accept that the media is only doing their jobs (which means they weren’t during WWII) and that our politicians are merely trying to do their best (Funny how the military guy’s best better be perfect or it’s his job while the politician’s failed best gets a pat on the back for trying).

    If the Greatest Generation gets the benefit of every single doubt and absolute forgiveness for every single thing that occurred, then surely today’s troop, who is restricted to unimaginable rules and laws and subjected to the utmost scrutiny of every single action should be given a break here and there.


    Our enemy today weas no uniform and his greatest ally is the American idiot who can't understand the world he lives in. The more I serve the less I feel this country deserves its military. And it's not because of his difference of opinion or his sense of persepective as some would default to. It's because he refuses to learn beyond what will make his fantasies of the world true no matter what is sacrificed.

    Isolationalism served us best.
    Last edited by MSgt; 11-29-09 at 01:16 AM.

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    Re: Navy SEALs Face Assault Charges for Capturing Most-Wanted Terrorist

    Quote Originally Posted by GySgt View Post
    That's because people are conditioned to see things a certain way. Dresden bombing? Hiroshima and Nagasaki? All efforts performed by heroes who fought for their country and brought home victory. This is proof that victory is always forgiven. Funny how a black eye or a fat lip or a frat party Abu-Graib scandal today is supposed to drag us through the mud as humanities ultimate evil. I'm sure our the Greatest Generation treated the Japanese prioners (who tortured and beheaded their prisoners of war) and German prisoners (who starved and torched their prisoners of war) with the utmost respect and gentleness. You know...because they were the "Greatest."

    We have become a civilization who enjoys watching the violence from the seats of the coloseum. The "thumbs up" or the "thumbs down" come in the form of the disgruntled, bittered, and ignorant masses who cling to what the world may think of them. We ignore the absolute depravity of foreign troops while allowing the foreign citizens of those troops to chastise ours for minor mistakes and criticizing alongside them.. We seek to destroy careers over mistakes or even less than perfect results in war for the sake of an image people on the outside really don’t care about either way,… yet criticize.

    And before Redress drops in and thinks she has thought this through and criticizes me…

    We are a civilization that loves our cinema. We like our Saving Private Ryans which show our past troop’s bravery and honor. We love our Band of Brothers and our Dirty Dozens that show courage and valor to bring victory. Even the comical and ridiculous Inglorious Bastards bring the cheers for our Greatest Generation. We love our John Waynes and Audey Murphys. But what does the troop get today? Are there any films that don’t show a military mind on the verge of madness? Or a military blunder? Any military movies about Vietnam forward that focus on the good old American drive to succeed in war for the audience to cheer? Or are they all focused on the individual mental “torture” of the troop for having to be victims of our own government’s tyranny? Poor Hawkeye (M.A.S.H.)… Poor Rambo. Gunny Highway (Heartbreak Ridge) was a drunk who couldn’t perform in civilian life. Even the Gulf War got a Hollywood shot of Bull**** with Jarhead for the masses to take pity on. And Iraq? Wait and see how Hollywood depicts the troop experience and thereby prescribing the American mindset. Or are we already seeing this?

    Hollywood has found that people seem more interested in the conspiracy or the fragile, weak, and rebellious mind of the military man fighting (against his will often enough) for his country. Politicians strip victory away from our military (Fallujah I) and offer success to another enemy (Iran). The media ignores the decapitation of servicemen and choose to earn their dimes on the mistakes of the military instead to a never ending result. But after all of this we are supposed to accept that the media is only doing their jobs (which means they weren’t during WWII) and that our politicians are merely trying to do their best (Funny how the military guy’s best better be perfect or it’s his job while the politician’s failed best gets a pat on the back for trying).

    If the Greatest Generation gets the benefit of every single doubt and absolute forgiveness for every single thing that occurred, then surely today’s troop, who is restricted to unimaginable rules and laws and subjected to the utmost scrutiny of every single action should be given a break here and there.


    Our enemy today weas no uniform and his greatest ally is the American idiot who can't understand the world he lives in. The more I serve the less I feel this country deserves its military. And it's not because of his difference of opinion or his sense of persepective as some would default to. It's because he refuses to learn beyond what will make his fantasies of the world true no matter what is sacrificed.

    Isolationalism served us best.

    Sounds like you going on twenty eh gunny?
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    Re: Navy SEALs Face Assault Charges for Capturing Most-Wanted Terrorist

    Quote Originally Posted by GySgt View Post
    That's because people are conditioned to see things a certain way. Dresden bombing? Hiroshima and Nagasaki? All efforts performed by heroes who fought for their country and brought home victory. This is proof that victory is always forgiven. Funny how a black eye or a fat lip or a frat party Abu-Graib scandal today is supposed to drag us through the mud as humanities ultimate evil. I'm sure our the Greatest Generation treated the Japanese prioners (who tortured and beheaded their prisoners of war) and German prisoners (who starved and torched their prisoners of war) with the utmost respect and gentleness. You know...because they were the "Greatest."

    We have become a civilization who enjoys watching the violence from the seats of the coloseum. The "thumbs up" or the "thumbs down" come in the form of the disgruntled, bittered, and ignorant masses who cling to what the world may think of them. We ignore the absolute depravity of foreign troops while allowing the foreign citizens of those troops to chastise ours for minor mistakes and criticizing alongside them.. We seek to destroy careers over mistakes or even less than perfect results in war for the sake of an image people on the outside really don’t care about either way,… yet criticize.

    And before Redress drops in and thinks she has thought this through and criticizes me…

    We are a civilization that loves our cinema. We like our Saving Private Ryans which show our past troop’s bravery and honor. We love our Band of Brothers and our Dirty Dozens that show courage and valor to bring victory. Even the comical and ridiculous Inglorious Bastards bring the cheers for our Greatest Generation. We love our John Waynes and Audey Murphys. But what does the troop get today? Are there any films that don’t show a military mind on the verge of madness? Or a military blunder? Any military movies about Vietnam forward that focus on the good old American drive to succeed in war for the audience to cheer? Or are they all focused on the individual mental “torture” of the troop for having to be victims of our own government’s tyranny? Poor Hawkeye (M.A.S.H.)… Poor Rambo. Gunny Highway (Heartbreak Ridge) was a drunk who couldn’t perform in civilian life. Even the Gulf War got a Hollywood shot of Bull**** with Jarhead for the masses to take pity on. And Iraq? Wait and see how Hollywood depicts the troop experience and thereby prescribing the American mindset. Or are we already seeing this?

    Hollywood has found that people seem more interested in the conspiracy or the fragile, weak, and rebellious mind of the military man fighting (against his will often enough) for his country. Politicians strip victory away from our military (Fallujah I) and offer success to another enemy (Iran). The media ignores the decapitation of servicemen and choose to earn their dimes on the mistakes of the military instead to a never ending result. But after all of this we are supposed to accept that the media is only doing their jobs (which means they weren’t during WWII) and that our politicians are merely trying to do their best (Funny how the military guy’s best better be perfect or it’s his job while the politician’s failed best gets a pat on the back for trying).

    If the Greatest Generation gets the benefit of every single doubt and absolute forgiveness for every single thing that occurred, then surely today’s troop, who is restricted to unimaginable rules and laws and subjected to the utmost scrutiny of every single action should be given a break here and there.

    Our enemy today weas no uniform and his greatest ally is the American idiot who can't understand the world he lives in. The more I serve the less I feel this country deserves its military. And it's not because of his difference of opinion or his sense of persepective as some would default to. It's because he refuses to learn beyond what will make his fantasies of the world true no matter what is sacrificed.

    Isolationalism served us best.
    So what do you think we should do when the military does something like Abu Gharib? Just give them a free pass? Just ignore it? Abu Gharib hurt us more than any other single event in Iraq, because it was such a big loss in the battle for hearts and minds. That is what matters in modern warfare. You can kill insurgents night and day, but it doesn't change the fact that unless the people are no longer willing to fight you, you can not win. And stupid **** like Abu Gharib makes sure that they continue to hate us more- especially the young males so concerned with honor who make up the the core of any guerrilla army.

    And what do you think would happen if our media didn't publicize Abu Gharib? The media in the middle east would still have ran with it, and it still would have been all over the websites the crazies use. Our media mostly caters to us, remember? People in the middle east have Al-Jazeera and Al-Arabia. On the other hand, if someone joining up watches that and gets the message that any BS like Abu Gharib gets them in deep deep ****, then maybe they'll keep their noses clean and not piss off the people we're trying to help.

    And then the whiny "well they do bad stuff!" So what? We're better than they are. We should demand each and every soldier behaves like a perfect paragon of decency. That we're fighting barbarians is no reason to sink down to their level. End of story.
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    Re: Navy SEALs Face Assault Charges for Capturing Most-Wanted Terrorist

    Quote Originally Posted by donc View Post
    Sounds like you going on twenty eh gunny?
    2 years shy and exhausted.

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