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Thread: AP POLL: Tax the rich to pay for health bill

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    Re: AP POLL: Tax the rich to pay for health bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Grim17 View Post
    Tax the rich... Kill the economy...

    Sounds like a democratic plan to me.

    .
    Yeah, because we've never had a healthy economy when the wealthy pay taxes higher than they do now...


    What you fail to understand is that when wealth becomes 'frozen' at the top, it does not trickle down... These are the conditions that lead to the great depression--the poker game analogy: when one player controls all the chips--the game is over.

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    Re: AP POLL: Tax the rich to pay for health bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Neitzluber View Post
    First:
    Protecting our ships from pirates using aircraft carriers would be hundreds of times more expensive than the cost of simply not doing trade. That is the reason we haven't deployed warships to guard the coast of Somalia.
    This is a clear indication that you do not have a big-picture point of view.

    Second:
    We already have 12,000 nukes and that's enough.
    Incorrect - we have about 5500 - and even if we did have 12000 warheads, its not relevant to what I said.
    CVN groups project CONVENTIONAL power. Your response indiclates a clear failure to understand the importance of that distinction.
    Last edited by Goobieman; 11-27-09 at 11:08 AM.

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    Re: AP POLL: Tax the rich to pay for health bill

    Quote Originally Posted by hazlnut View Post
    Yeah, because we've never had a healthy economy when the wealthy pay taxes higher than they do now...


    What you fail to understand is that when wealth becomes 'frozen' at the top, it does not trickle down... These are the conditions that lead to the great depression--the poker game analogy: when one player controls all the chips--the game is over.
    As typically practiced in modern America, how does wealth get "frozen at the top"?!? Can you give an example of when that last happened to us?

    And as for "trickle down" economics...do you realize what it is that is actually trickling down to the masses?

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    Re: AP POLL: Tax the rich to pay for health bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Telecaster View Post
    As typically practiced in modern America, how does wealth get "frozen at the top"?!? Can you give an example of when that last happened to us?

    And as for "trickle down" economics...do you realize what it is that is actually trickling down to the masses?
    'Trickle down' and Marxism do the same thing -- spread the weaith.
    One does it thru the free market and freedom to chose, the other does it at the point of a gun.

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    Re: AP POLL: Tax the rich to pay for health bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    'Trickle down' and Marxism do the same thing -- spread the weaith.
    One does it thru the free market and freedom to chose, the other does it at the point of a gun.
    That's "freedom to CHOOSE".

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    Re: AP POLL: Tax the rich to pay for health bill

    Why wouldn't we increase the taxes? It was pretty obvious under the Bush tax cuts that tax revenue went down. Therefore, according to the laffer curve, the revenue maximizing taxation rate would be above the current percentage.

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    Re: AP POLL: Tax the rich to pay for health bill

    Quote Originally Posted by drz-400 View Post
    Why wouldn't we increase the taxes? It was pretty obvious under the Bush tax cuts that tax revenue went down.
    False, they went up.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

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    Re: AP POLL: Tax the rich to pay for health bill

    Between 2001 and 2004 the tax revenues were below that of the year 2000, despite the fact the GNP,GDP, taxable income, ect. continued to rise. How would you explain that?

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    Re: AP POLL: Tax the rich to pay for health bill

    Quote Originally Posted by drz-400 View Post
    Between 2001 and 2004 the tax revenues were below that of the year 2000, despite the fact the GNP,GDP, taxable income, ect. continued to rise. How would you explain that?
    Okay, revenues fell. Initially. And then they began to rise again somewhere between that '01 and '04 period, evetually surpassing '00 revenues. So you in turn can explain that.

    But there is nothing wrong with decreased revenues as long as Congress would adjust it's spending. And that is the only real problem in all of this. They usually don't control their spending in peace time (the wars didn't help).

    So we can see here, from what you've helped to show, despite tax rate and revenue reductions, the economy will grow. Even out of recession (which Bush inherited in 2001).
    Last edited by Telecaster; 11-28-09 at 02:03 PM.

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    Re: AP POLL: Tax the rich to pay for health bill

    Revenues only began to rise again after 2003. The GNP grew by twice the amount in 2003-2004 as opposed to 2001-2002. This would signify to me that economic growth is a contributing factor to tax revenues.

    In 2008 revenues declined rather than increased due to a small rise in GNP once again. However, during this time tax revenues remained higher than that of 2000. This would signifiy to me that economic growth is not the sole contributor to tax revenues; the size of the economy also matters.

    In 2007-2008 the GNP grew by $.6 billion. In 1999-2000 the GNP grew by $3.6billion. The economy in 2007-2008 grew at a much smaller rate than in 1999-2000; 17% of that in 1999-2000. However the GNP in 2008 was $17 billion dollars higher than in 2000. Thats a 120% larger economy than in 2000. This seems to show that the size of the economy is a much larger contributor to tax revenues than growth of the economy.

    In 1999-2000 the GNP grew by $3.6 billion. In 2004-2005 the GNP grew by $3.0 billion. Therefore the economy in 2004-2005 grew about 83% of that in 1999-2000.

    In 2005, when the revenues were once again higher than that of 2000 the GNP was about $12 billion larger. Thats a 113% larger private economy in the U.S. than in 2000. The size of the economy should have a much larger effect on tax revenue, therefore I conclude this is the larger contributing factor to the increase in revenues.

    Total tax revenues in year 2000 were $1.9 trillion. Tax revenues in 2005 were $2.0 trillion. Thats 105% higher in 2005 than in 2000.

    However all this can be more easily seen when looking at the total AGI reported on tax returns (at least if we are talking of income taxes) as this seems to follow these general guildines I have stated.

    The total AGI reported on tax returns in 2000 was $6.36 trillion. The total AGI reported on tax returns in 2005 was $7.4 trillion. Thats 117% higher in 2005 than in 2000.

    Income tax revenue did not increase from 2000 levels until 2006. But taking 2005's gross income tax revenue we will see the they are 97% of 2000's. The net income tax collection for 2005 was 90% of that in 2000.

    Why would the increases in all three cases not be the same if the government was maximizing it's revenue?

    According to the laffer curve, if the government is bringing in less than maximum revenue and the tax was too low (we can assume it is too low because the tax rate was reduced and revenues seem to have dropped), then tax rates should be increased to maximize revenue. I could go ahead and analyze every year after the bush tax cuts but it is pretty obvious they dropped tax revenue and if we raised the tax percentage we would see an increase in revenues.

    Why would the government not want to maximize revenue when it has a $12 trillion loan to pay off and happens to be in a war? The senate can say we are going to pay less this year, but it will still have $12 trillion to owe.

    As far as coming out of a recession. We have come out of a recession with high tax rates (ie. the great depression) and with low tax rates (ie. the 1970's stagflation). What recession does our current one seem to fit more?
    Last edited by drz-400; 11-29-09 at 04:43 AM.

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