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Thread: AP POLL: Tax the rich to pay for health bill

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    Re: AP POLL: Tax the rich to pay for health bill

    Quote Originally Posted by UtahBill View Post
    We should be balancing the budget every year, period. If some years need more money, taxes go up that year only. Allowing deficits and debt to accumulate is just plain stupid...
    One ought to be drawing surpluses in times of prosperity to prepare for future recessions (avoid debt later).
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    Re: AP POLL: Tax the rich to pay for health bill

    Quote Originally Posted by UtahBill View Post
    We should be balancing the budget every year, period. If some years need more money, taxes go up that year only. Allowing deficits and debt to accumulate is just plain stupid...
    Because of the nature of our legislative system, that is not possible. Anyone who votes to raise taxes will most probably be voted out immediately thereafter.
    Therefore, politicians are forced to continuously keep offering to cut taxes and increase services.

    I'm not an expert on public finance, but I don't see what the problem with just printing more money is. Someone please explain that to me.

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    Re: AP POLL: Tax the rich to pay for health bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Neitzluber View Post
    Because of the nature of our legislative system, that is not possible. Anyone who votes to raise taxes will most probably be voted out immediately thereafter.
    Therefore, politicians are forced to continuously keep offering to cut taxes and increase services.

    I'm not an expert on public finance, but I don't see what the problem with just printing more money is. Someone please explain that to me.
    Maybe all Government jobs should be put on a set wage/salary that we the people get to vote on, not them. I'm down for knocking Congress down to say...$20/hour ONLY for hours that they show up to work. That's about what I made cleaning carpets and I know being a Congressional representative isn't that hard.

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    Re: AP POLL: Tax the rich to pay for health bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Neitzluber View Post
    I think 20% is reasonable. Their businesses certainly would not work if:

    The government-run road system didn't exist.
    The government-run FAA didn't manage flights.
    The government-run military didn't defend the nation.
    The government-run police didn't protect their assets.
    The government-run court system didn't protect their rights.
    The government-run public utilities didn't deliver infrastructural services.
    The government-subsidized railroads didn't deliver goods.
    The government-subsidized farms didn't produce cheap corn.

    And so on and so forth.
    I would agree with this. We tax them something like double that, so that might be where the disagreement comes from.

    Consider that back in the 1950s, they were taxed at 90% and were still drowning in money. (but I'm just saying!)
    This is a highly misleading stat, as the number of people that fell into the top tax bracket back then was absolutely minuscule compared to today. The top marginal tax rate from 1950 kicked in at $3.5m in 2008 dollars. Today, the top tax bracket kicks in at approximately 1/10th of that.

    The country was very prosperous back then.
    There was no talk of evil government repression.
    I think Ronald Reagan screwed us up really well when he allowed our businesses to outsource their manufacturing.
    There was no talk of evil government repression from the 50's until Reagan?
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    Re: AP POLL: Tax the rich to pay for health bill

    Quote Originally Posted by UtahBill View Post
    We should be balancing the budget every year, period. If some years need more money, taxes go up that year only. Allowing deficits and debt to accumulate is just plain stupid...
    That would be bad. Take a recession for example. Because people are making less money, the taxes are going to fall. So if it was a balanced budget before, it'll be a deficit now. If you increase the taxes to make it balance you're removing even more money from the economy. Which of course, will just make the recession worse. You would just end up making it worse that much faster.

    I think long-term we should have a balanced budget. But we can do that with deficits during recessions and surpluses the rest of the time to make it balance out. This also provides a more stable tax system, rates wouldn't need to wildly change every year.

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    Re: AP POLL: Tax the rich to pay for health bill

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    I would agree with this. We tax them something like double that, so that might be where the disagreement comes from.
    I guess it depends on the state. Here in Alaska, there's no state income tax.
    California has much higher taxes. It is still more prosperous. The rich people in California are a lot richer than the rich people in Alaska. There's a lot more poverty here, mainly among Alaska Natives. They are an unfortunate lot.



    This is a highly misleading stat, as the number of people that fell into the top tax bracket back then was absolutely minuscule compared to today. The top marginal tax rate from 1950 kicked in at $3.5m in 2008 dollars. Today, the top tax bracket kicks in at approximately 1/10th of that.
    I think everyone should pay the same percentage. If everyone paid 10% to the federal government and 10% to state governments, there would be enough public funding and people would not have so much trouble with their taxes.



    There was no talk of evil government repression from the 50's until Reagan?
    There was, but the talk was about hypothetical fears of communism coming to America. The fear was aimed at people outside of government, people who could potentially be in government. Today, there's talk of the actual sitting government being communist. That's nonsense. There's nothing communist about our corporatist (big-government capitalism) government.

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    Re: AP POLL: Tax the rich to pay for health bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Neitzluber View Post
    I guess it depends on the state. Here in Alaska, there's no state income tax.
    California has much higher taxes. It is still more prosperous. The rich people in California are a lot richer than the rich people in Alaska. There's a lot more poverty here, mainly among Alaska Natives. They are an unfortunate lot.
    Texas has no state income tax and an unemployment rate around 4.2% lower than CA's. I don't think the two are necessarily related.

    I think everyone should pay the same percentage. If everyone paid 10% to the federal government and 10% to state governments, there would be enough public funding and people would not have so much trouble with their taxes.
    I don't think that would actually create enough revenue.

    There was, but the talk was about hypothetical fears of communism coming to America. The fear was aimed at people outside of government, people who could potentially be in government. Today, there's talk of the actual sitting government being communist. That's nonsense. There's nothing communist about our corporatist (big-government capitalism) government.
    There was plenty of criticism of the government as being fascists/corporatists/etc. back then. Vietnam?
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

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    Re: AP POLL: Tax the rich to pay for health bill

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    Texas has no state income tax and an unemployment rate around 4.2% lower than CA's. I don't think the two are necessarily related.
    Well, conditions need to be such that people have an incentive to open up businesses and hire people. Lowering taxes alone won't do the trick. Helping people that are already rich doesn't help at all. What the government needs to do is create new businesses opportunities. For example, the government's DARPA made the internet, which created a very, very large industry in a matter of a few years. We need to look for more things like this that could be stimuli.



    I don't think that would actually create enough revenue.
    Not with the current level of spending. Currently our government spends money quite inefficiently. Medicaid and Medicare are very, very expensive. If we had one national healthcare system instead of those, we'd save money and cover more people. Our military is also very wasteful. It spends money on weapons that will never be used, such as the F-22, or all of those aircraft carriers. They are very, very expensive and frankly unnecessary.



    There was plenty of criticism of the government as being fascists/corporatists/etc. back then. Vietnam?
    Sure, but it had nothing to do with taxes being high. It was mostly criticism from the left-wing about the Vietnam War and how it was making weapon makers rich.

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    Re: AP POLL: Tax the rich to pay for health bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Neitzluber View Post
    Well, conditions need to be such that people have an incentive to open up businesses and hire people. Lowering taxes alone won't do the trick. Helping people that are already rich doesn't help at all. What the government needs to do is create new businesses opportunities. For example, the government's DARPA made the internet, which created a very, very large industry in a matter of a few years. We need to look for more things like this that could be stimuli.
    But how many "automobile" or ".com" Industries can we expect to spring up?

    Quote Originally Posted by Neitzluber View Post
    Not with the current level of spending. Currently our government spends money quite inefficiently. Medicaid and Medicare are very, very expensive. If we had one national healthcare system instead of those, we'd save money and cover more people.
    Yes, let's send more budgeting responsibility to the Federal Level.


    Quote Originally Posted by Neitzluber View Post
    Our military is also very wasteful. It spends money on weapons that will never be used, such as the F-22, or all of those aircraft carriers. They are very, very expensive and frankly unnecessary.
    Oh! Excellent idea, let's cut funding to the one part of the Government that physically ensures the safety of our Freedoms! Because laws in books and international conventions/agreements, like the U.N. can do all that for us.

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    Re: AP POLL: Tax the rich to pay for health bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Neitzluber View Post
    Well, conditions need to be such that people have an incentive to open up businesses and hire people. Lowering taxes alone won't do the trick. Helping people that are already rich doesn't help at all. What the government needs to do is create new businesses opportunities. For example, the government's DARPA made the internet, which created a very, very large industry in a matter of a few years. We need to look for more things like this that could be stimuli.
    And I'm sure that the government would love to come up with innovations on the scale of the internet, much like any number of private companies would. It's not exactly an easy process.

    Not with the current level of spending. Currently our government spends money quite inefficiently. Medicaid and Medicare are very, very expensive. If we had one national healthcare system instead of those, we'd save money and cover more people.
    And you're basing this conclusion on?

    Our military is also very wasteful. It spends money on weapons that will never be used, such as the F-22, or all of those aircraft carriers. They are very, very expensive and frankly unnecessary.
    Of course we can make some cuts, but you've shown nothing that would indicate that this would resolve the problem that you've identified. Do you have any idea of the numbers for your proposals?

    Sure, but it had nothing to do with taxes being high. It was mostly criticism from the left-wing about the Vietnam War and how it was making weapon makers rich.
    You don't think people complained about taxes being high and the government being overly intrusive before recent years? Really?
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

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