Page 33 of 44 FirstFirst ... 23313233343543 ... LastLast
Results 321 to 330 of 440

Thread: New York trial for alleged 9/11 mastermind

  1. #321
    Disappointed Evolutionist
    Catawba's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Last Seen
    05-28-13 @ 08:15 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    27,254

    Re: New York trial for alleged 9/11 mastermind

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Hmmm.....Was their attack on 9/11 Justified?


    j-mac
    Of course not. Just our attack that resulted in 100,000 Iraqi civilian deaths was not justified.

    The ends do not justify the means, no matter what flag you are flying.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  2. #322
    wʜɪтe яussɪaи Tashah's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    ישראל • אמריקה
    Last Seen
    05-12-14 @ 04:00 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Centrist
    Posts
    18,379

    Re: New York trial for alleged 9/11 mastermind

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Of course not. Just our attack that resulted in 100,000 Iraqi civilian deaths was not justified. The ends do not justify the means, no matter what flag you are flying.
    I'm no fan of Bush & Co, but implying that the Iraqi civilian death toll was an anticipated and accepted means to an end is quite disingenuous.

    אשכנזי היהודי • Белый Россию

  3. #323
    Disappointed Evolutionist
    Catawba's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Last Seen
    05-28-13 @ 08:15 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    27,254

    Re: New York trial for alleged 9/11 mastermind

    Quote Originally Posted by Tashah View Post
    I'm no fan of Bush & Co, but implying that the Iraqi civilian death toll was an anticipated and accepted means to an end is quite disingenuous.
    I am talking about Gulf War ! when we knowingly bombed electrical plants and water treatment facilities that supplied potable water to the citizens that resulted in the deaths of 100,000 civilians, doubled the infant mortality rate, and was one of the reasons for the terrorists retaliation attack on 9/11.

    My son was there and left the Air Force after 13 years service due to our inhumane treatment of the Iraqi people.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  4. #324
    Girthless
    RightinNYC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    New York, NY
    Last Seen
    01-23-11 @ 11:56 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Slightly Conservative
    Posts
    25,894

    Re: New York trial for alleged 9/11 mastermind

    Quote Originally Posted by Crunch View Post
    My bet is that there won't be very many new prisoners taken from this day forward.
    Sure there will be - they'll just be sent to Bagram instead.

    Here's the thing - while Obama might be throw a few guys into the Art. III courts, he's not an idiot. He knows that it's just a sham and wants to win this war as much as everyone else. That's why he talks tough on Gitmo, but is fighting as hard as he can under the radar to keep Bagram exactly the way it is.

    I really can't complain that much - he throws a sop to the ignorant by making moves like this, but then generally does what needs to be done behind the scenes.
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

  5. #325
    User
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Last Seen
    12-04-09 @ 10:57 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Liberal
    Posts
    119

    Re: New York trial for alleged 9/11 mastermind

    Quote Originally Posted by Tashah View Post
    I'm no fan of Bush & Co, but implying that the Iraqi civilian death toll was an anticipated and accepted means to an end is quite disingenuous.
    They were all going to die someday anyways.

  6. #326
    ANTI**ANTIFA
    ReverendHellh0und's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Temple of Solomon
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 06:22 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    75,740

    Re: New York trial for alleged 9/11 mastermind

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    I am talking about Gulf War ! when we knowingly bombed electrical plants and water treatment facilities that supplied potable water to the citizens that resulted in the deaths of 100,000 civilians, doubled the infant mortality rate, and was one of the reasons for the terrorists retaliation attack on 9/11.

    thank me very much. although i remember we took out some powerplants that powered thier anti aircraft systems. I dont recall hitting any water treatment facilities. Making it up again? Que dailykos or prison planet links?



    My son was there and left the Air Force after 13 years service due to our inhumane treatment of the Iraqi people.
    So his concience took him 13 years? It was probably best he separated. Yellow does not look good in uniform.
    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

  7. #327
    Disappointed Evolutionist
    Catawba's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Last Seen
    05-28-13 @ 08:15 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    27,254

    Re: New York trial for alleged 9/11 mastermind

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend_Hellh0und View Post
    thank me very much. although i remember we took out some powerplants that powered thier anti aircraft systems. I dont recall hitting any water treatment facilities. Making it up again? Que dailykos or prison planet links?

    From the Defense Intelligence Agency ~

    ""IRAQ WATER TREATMENT VULNERABILITIES"

    U.S. Defense Intelligence Agency document of 28 key judgments, from the 2nd day of the Gulf War, available through the Department of Defense GulfLINK declassification project. For the full document, click here. For related documents, see The Secret Behind the Sanctions, How the U.S. Intentionally Destroyed Iraq's Water Supply | The Progressive. Excerpts (emphasis added):

    FM: DIA WASHINGTON DC
    TO: CENTCOM
    INFO: CENTAF; UK STRIKE COMMAND; MARCENT; 18 ABC; NAVCENT; SOCCENT; 7TH CORPS; ANKARA

    SUBJECT: IRAQ WATER TREATMMENT VULNERABILITIES (U)
    AS OF 18 JAN 91 KEY JUDGMENTS.

    1. IRAO DEPENDS ON IMPORTING-SPECIALIZED EQUIPMENT-AND SOME CHEMICALS TO PURIFY ITS WATER SUPPLY, MOST OF WHICH IS HEAVILY MINERALIZED AND FREQUENTLY BRACKISH TO SALINE.

    2. WITH NO DOMESTIC SOURCES OF BOTH WATER TREATMENT REPLACEMENT PARTS AND SOME ESSENTIAL CHEMICALS, IRAO WILL CONTINUE ATTEMPTS TO CIRCUMVENT UNITED NATIONS SANCTIONS TO IMPORT THESE VITAL COMMODITIES.

    3. FAILING TO SECURE SUPPLIES WILL RESULT IN A SHORTAGE OF PURE DRINKING WATER FOR MUCH OF THE POPULATION. THIS COULD LEAD TO INCREASED INCIDENCES, IF NOT EPIDEMICS, OF DISEASE....
    ...

    28. THE ENTIRE IRAOI WATER TREATMENT SYSTEM WILL NOT COLLAPSE PRECIPITOUSLY.... FULL DEGRADATION OF THE WATER TREATMENT SYSTEM PROBABLY WILL TAKE AT LEAST ANOTHER 6 MONTHS."

    "Articles from USAF Air & Space Power Journal (1995, 2001)

    "Bombing Dual-Use Targets: Legal, Ethical, and Doctrinal Perspectives" by Kenneth R. Rizer, Air & Space Power Chronicles, May 1, 2001, Bombing Dual-Use Targets: Legal, Ethical, and Doctrinal Perspectives.

    "The Enemy as a System" by Colonel John A. Warden III, USAF, published in Airpower Journal, Spring 1995, The Enemy as a System.

    Air & Space Power Journal is a publication of the United States Air Force (USAF) and focuses on the operational level of war and strategy/policy issues. Air & Space Power Chronicles is a related forum with a wider focus.

    Excerpt from Rizer's "Bombing of Dual-Use Targets":

    "A key example of such dual-use targeting was the destruction of Iraqi electrical power facilities in Desert Storm. While crippling Iraq's military command and control capability, destruction of these facilities shut down water purification and sewage treatment plants. As a result, epidemics of gastroenteritis, cholera, and typhoid broke out, leading to perhaps as many as 100,000 civilian deaths and a doubling of the infant mortality rate."

    Citizens Concerned for the People of Iraq


    So his concience took him 13 years? It was probably best he separated. Yellow does not look good in uniform.
    Before Desert Storm he had not been asked to support the killing of innocent civilians. He did not agree to immoral acts when he signed up. It makes us no different than the terrorist who also justify the killing of innocent civilians.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  8. #328
    Sage
    AlbqOwl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    New Mexico
    Last Seen
    Today @ 03:47 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    17,550
    Blog Entries
    2

    Re: New York trial for alleged 9/11 mastermind

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    I am talking about Gulf War ! when we knowingly bombed electrical plants and water treatment facilities that supplied potable water to the citizens that resulted in the deaths of 100,000 civilians, doubled the infant mortality rate, and was one of the reasons for the terrorists retaliation attack on 9/11.

    My son was there and left the Air Force after 13 years service due to our inhumane treatment of the Iraqi people.
    I'm sorry Catawba, but I simply don't believe you. I think there have been members of the military--a tiny percentage--who have left the service for matters of conscience of one sort or another. But I do not believe a single one so far is reported to have left because of any 'inhumane treatment of the Iraqi people' by the US military. (This is apart from the very few instances of soldier misconduct, and every single one of those has been prosecuted.)

    Among the many friends and loved ones that I personally have and have had serving over there, every one to a man or woman reports the very compassionate and very humanitarian policy and procedures of the U.S. military and the very real gratitude of most of the Iraqi people.

    And many hundreds of thousands, if not millions of man hours have now been devoted to rebuilding infrastructure, restoring power and water supplies, and creating those where none previously existed. They have built and restored hospitals and schools and roads and ended the extreme hunger and medical neglect suffered by millions under Saddam's rule. When he diverted humanitarian cash and resources to his own pleasures and to pay off his buddies, it is estimated that at least 50,000 Iraqis starved or died from lack of medical attention, and most of those were children. I suppose you think we should have just kept the sanctions in place for another 12 years and killed off 50,000 more kids?

    If you want to know what inhumane treatment of the Iraqi people looks like, read the first chapter or so of Bill Sammon's book "Misunderestimated". Or any other work by a true journalist. And then come back and tell me how 'inhumane' the USA has been to the Iraqis.

    Knowing what we know now, I don't know how I would have voted to invade or not invade Iraq this last go round. The USA may be worse off, but I am convinced that presently the Iraqi people are NOT worse off because we did.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

  9. #329
    Banned
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Last Seen
    01-26-10 @ 04:12 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Moderate
    Posts
    531

    Re: New York trial for alleged 9/11 mastermind

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Of course not. Just our attack that resulted in 100,000 Iraqi civilian deaths was not justified.

    The ends do not justify the means, no matter what flag you are flying.
    I believe we should have gone in well before we did. Hussein did a lot of nasties - trust that his own people did not hang him for nothing.

    He invaded and brutalized Kuwait, and was responsible for training and arming many terrorists, who he harbored in Iraq before and after 9/11.

    Here's a little read for you to get an idea of just how bad the iraqis needed to be liberated from the tyranny they were under - it was written before we went in, and we all know it turned out to be much worse than they ever thought when many, many - too many - mass graves and tourture facilities were discovered:

    "Mr. Hussein's has been a tale of terror that scholars have compared to that of Stalin, whom the Iraqi leader is said to revere, even if his own brutalities have played out on a small scale. Stalin killed 20 million of his own people, historians have concluded. Even on a proportional basis, his crimes far surpass Mr. Hussein's, but figures of a million dead Iraqis, in war and through terror, may not be far from the mark, in a country of 22 million people.

    Where the comparison seems closest is in the regime's mercilessly sadistic character. Iraq has its gulag of prisons, dungeons and torture chambers — some of them acknowledged, like Abu Ghraib, and as many more disguised as hotels, sports centers and other innocent-sounding places. It has its overlapping secret-police agencies, and its culture of betrayal, with family members denouncing each other, and offices and factories becoming hives of perfidy.

    "Enemies of the state" are eliminated, and their spouses, adult children and even cousins are often tortured and killed along with them.

    Mr. Hussein even uses Stalinist maxims, including what an Iraqi defector identified as one of the dictator's favorites: "If there is a person, then there is a problem. If there is no person, then there is no problem."

    There are rituals to make the end as terrible as possible, not only for the victims but for those who survive. After seizing power in July 1979, Mr. Hussein handed weapons to surviving members of the ruling elite, then joined them in personally executing 22 comrades who had dared to oppose his ascent.

    The terror is self-compounding, with the state's power reinforced by stories that relatives of the victims pale to tell — of fingernail-extracting, eye-gouging, genital-shocking and bucket-drowning. Secret police rape prisoners' wives and daughters to force confessions and denunciations. There are assassinations, in Iraq and abroad, and, ultimately, the gallows, the firing squads and the pistol shots to the head.

    DOING the arithmetic is an imprecise venture. The largest number of deaths attributable to Mr. Hussein's regime resulted from the war between Iraq and Iran between 1980 and 1988, which was launched by Mr. Hussein. Iraq says its own toll was 500,000, and Iran's reckoning ranges upward of 300,000. Then there are the casualties in the wake of Iraq's 1990 occupation of Kuwait. Iraq's official toll from American bombing in that war is 100,000 — surely a gross exaggeration — but nobody contests that thousands of Iraqi soldiers and civilians were killed in the American campaign to oust Mr. Hussein's forces from Kuwait. In addition, 1,000 Kuwaitis died during the fighting and occupation in their country.

    Casualties from Iraq's gulag are harder to estimate. Accounts collected by Western human rights groups from Iraqi émigrés and defectors have suggested that the number of those who have "disappeared" into the hands of the secret police, never to be heard from again, could be 200,000. As long as Mr. Hussein remains in power, figures like these will be uncheckable, but the huge toll is palpable nonetheless.

    Just as in Stalin's Russia, the machinery of death is mostly invisible, except for the effects it works on those brushed by it — in the loss of relatives and friends, and in the universal terror that others have of falling into the abyss. If anybody wants to know what terror looks like, its face is visible every day on every street of Iraq.

    "Minders," the men who watch visiting reporters day and night, are supposedly drawn from among the regime's harder men. But even they break down, hands shaking, eyes brimming, voices desperate, when reporters ask ordinary Iraqis edgy questions about Mr. Hussein.

    "You have killed me, and killed my family," one minder said after a photographer for The New York Times made unauthorized photographs of an exhibition of statues of the Iraqi dictator during a November visit to Baghdad's College of Fine Arts. In recent years, the inexorable nature of Iraq's horrors have been demonstrated by new campaigns bearing the special hallmark of Mr. Hussein. In 1999, a complaint about prison overcrowding led to an instruction from the Iraqi leader for a "prison cleansing" drive. This resulted, according to human rights groups, in hundreds, and possibly thousands, of executions.

    Using a satanic arithmetic, prison governors worked out how many prisoners would have to be hanged to bring the numbers down to stipulated levels, even taking into account the time remaining in the inmates' sentences. As 20 and 30 prisoners at a time were executed at Abu Ghraib and elsewhere, warders trailed through cities like Baghdad, "selling" exemption from execution to shocked families, according to people in Iraq who said they had spoken to relatives of those involved. Bribes of money, furniture, cars and even property titles brought only temporary stays.

    MORE recently, according to Iraqis who fled to Jordan and other neighboring countries, scores of women have been executed under a new twist in a "return to faith" campaign proclaimed by Mr. Hussein. Aimed at bolstering his support across the Islamic world, the campaign led early on to a ban on drinking alcohol in public. Then, some time in the last two years, it widened to include the public killing of accused prostitutes.

    Often, the executions have been carried out by the Fedayeen Saddam, a paramilitary group headed by Mr. Hussein's oldest son, 38-year-old Uday. These men, masked and clad in black, make the women kneel in busy city squares, along crowded sidewalks, or in neighborhood plots, then behead them with swords. The families of some victims have claimed they were innocent of any crime save that of criticizing Mr. Hussein."
    Last edited by Tom Jones; 11-21-09 at 11:59 PM.

  10. #330
    Disappointed Evolutionist
    Catawba's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Last Seen
    05-28-13 @ 08:15 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    27,254

    Re: New York trial for alleged 9/11 mastermind

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post

    Knowing what we know now, I don't know how I would have voted to invade or not invade Iraq this last go round. The USA may be worse off, but I am convinced that presently the Iraqi people are NOT worse off because we did.
    Easy for you to say. Your country was not invaded and occupied. If our puppet government there cannot stand against its own people without our continued occupation, what exactly is it we won worth tens of thousands of civilian deaths brought about by our invasion?

    Stop loss orders would not have used for so many troops if there were more support for the war on terror.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

Page 33 of 44 FirstFirst ... 23313233343543 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •