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Thread: New York trial for alleged 9/11 mastermind

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    Re: New York trial for alleged 9/11 mastermind

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    An internet blog plays what role in our criminal justice system?
    These people will not get a fair trial, this is the point here. Even if they were to be found not guilty, they would never walk out of this courthouse, never!

    So one has to ask the obvious question, why are we doing this?

    I am all for our courts, our system of justice, as imperfect as they are, they are still the best in the world, but this is silly.

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    Re: New York trial for alleged 9/11 mastermind

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Thanks for your opinion. That's probably enough to change the Justice Departments plans.
    Another immature non-response. I see no reason to continue this discussion.

    Bye...

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    Re: New York trial for alleged 9/11 mastermind

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    Bye...
    See ya!

    If you hear of the anything that will change the Justice Department plans, please drop by and share with us!
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: New York trial for alleged 9/11 mastermind

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    See ya!

    If you hear of the anything that will change the Justice Department plans, please drop by and share with us!
    So you cannot answer the obvious question, can you?

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    Re: New York trial for alleged 9/11 mastermind

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    I prefer the terrorist being brought to justice in a more transparent federal court system over the Bush method of holding them without trial.
    So you prefer a few selected terrorists being tried in the Art. III courts while the rest are either tried in the Bush/Obama tribunals or held without trial under the Bush/Obama detainee policy. That's fine, I just want you to understand what it is you're endorsing, since you don't seem to.

    I don't know how to make that anymore clear to you.
    You could start by reading what you've said and understanding why it made no sense.

    Except that one involves holding them indefinitely without a trial and the other allows them a trial by jury in a federal court system.
    Not even close. You're conflating two entirely different issues: our legal authority for detaining individuals and our judicial/military disposition of their cases. As to the first one, Obama has in all relevant aspects endorsed the Bush Administration policy. As to the second, he has affirmed the legal underpinnings of the Bush Administration policy and endorsed their use as to the vast majority of detainees. The only sliver of difference between Bush and Obama on either issue is that Obama has chosen to take the handful of detainees for whom we have overwhelming admissible evidence and put them on trial.

    That's fine. Nobody is saying he doesn't have the authority to do that. Some people have disagreements about whether this is the best policy or not, which is a healthy discussion to have. Unfortunately, it's been derailed for the past few pages by off-topic arguments which would have been more properly eviscerated 5 months ago when the Obama Administration adopted the Bush Administration's legal conclusions on this topic.

    An internet blog plays what role in our criminal justice system?
    JFC.

    Where did I say that it "plays a role in our criminal justice system"?

    I took the time to provide you with a link to an enlightening analysis of the Obama Administration's decision in the hopes that it would help you understand what we're talking about. If you don't want to understand, there's nothing else I can do for you.
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

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    Re: New York trial for alleged 9/11 mastermind

    Quote Originally Posted by Jackboot View Post
    So you cannot answer the obvious question, can you?
    It is only a obvious question to a few who misunderstand the causes, and more importantly, the solutions to terrorism.

    As the Rand report to the Pentagon stated, military solutions have only been successful in ending 7% of the terrorist groups in the past. Political solutions are the predominant way that terrorist groups have been defeated in the past. It is all about influencing hearts and minds throughout the world in order to reduce their recruitment capabilities.

    We've tried the military route for 8 years and it has been a failure. I think Holder thinks it more prudent to follow the recommendations of the Rand Report.

    I do too!
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: New York trial for alleged 9/11 mastermind

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    So you prefer a few selected terrorists being tried in the Art. III courts while the rest are either tried in the Bush/Obama tribunals or held without trial under the Bush/Obama detainee policy. That's fine, I just want you to understand what it is you're endorsing, since you don't seem to.

    They can't be tried all at once. However, Obama is set to bring more terrorists to justice in his first two years than the status quo did in 8 years.
    And that's fine if that's your opinion. I just want you to understand what it is you are endorsing, since you don't seem to.


    The only sliver of difference between Bush and Obama on either issue is that Obama has chosen to take the handful of detainees for whom we have overwhelming admissible evidence and put them on trial.

    He's attempting to do what the last administration said could not be done. Closing Gitmo. I give him an A for effort for that.

    That's fine. Nobody is saying he doesn't have the authority to do that.

    We are in agreement then.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: New York trial for alleged 9/11 mastermind

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    It is only a obvious question to a few who misunderstand the causes, and more importantly, the solutions to terrorism.

    As the Rand report to the Pentagon stated, military solutions have only been successful in ending 7% of the terrorist groups in the past. Political solutions are the predominant way that terrorist groups have been defeated in the past. It is all about influencing hearts and minds throughout the world in order to reduce their recruitment capabilities.

    We've tried the military route for 8 years and it has been a failure. I think Holder thinks it more prudent to follow the recommendations of the Rand Report.

    I do too!
    Holder doesn't think a goddamn thing about the Rand Report, nor is it his position to do so. The effect the Rand Report is referring to is entirely a result of military and foreign policy. How we resolve our detainee cases is not substantially related.
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

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    Re: New York trial for alleged 9/11 mastermind

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    Holder doesn't think a goddamn thing about the Rand Report, nor is it his position to do so. The effect the Rand Report is referring to is entirely a result of military and foreign policy. How we resolve our detainee cases is not substantially related.
    That is how you and the fringe right see it. We on the left see it as an integral part of our failed war on terror.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: New York trial for alleged 9/11 mastermind

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    That is how you and the fringe right see it. We on the left see it as an integral part of our failed war on terror.
    Not really. Holder is an intelligent guy - there's absolutely no way he thinks this process is designed to address the issues raised in that report.

    But hey, if you've uncovered something nobody else has found, why don't you show us the part of the Rand Report that argues that the prosecution of a handful of terrorists in Art. III courts will reduce terrorism?

    http://www.rand.org/pubs/monographs/...ND_MG741-1.pdf

    There's the whole thing. Let us know how it goes.

    They can't be tried all at once.
    Yes they could. The reason the others are not being brought to the Art. III courts is because of a desire to resolve those cases in another fashion, not out of any issue relating to capacity.

    However, Obama is set to bring more terrorists to justice in his first two years than the status quo did in 8 years.
    Depends on how you look at it.
    And that's fine if that's your opinion. I just want you to understand what it is you are endorsing, since you don't seem to.

    He's attempting to do what the last administration said could not be done. Closing Gitmo. I give him an A for effort for that.
    Yea, and from now on, he'll just ship all our captured terrorists to Bagram instead, for which he's adopted the exact same position that the Bush Administration took as to Guantanamo.

    al Maqaleh v Gates

    Bagram is a great litmus test to distinguish between the principled individuals who come down on one side, the principled individuals who come down on the other, and those who don't know what they're talking about.
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

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