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Thread: New York trial for alleged 9/11 mastermind

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    Re: New York trial for alleged 9/11 mastermind

    Quote Originally Posted by Arch Enemy View Post
    I'm not gonna lie.

    This post Gitmo pic is a bit threatening.




    He could pass as a Sesame Street Character.
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    Re: New York trial for alleged 9/11 mastermind

    Quote Originally Posted by Councilman View Post
    1. There most certainly is but almost all of it was obtained by the use of torture and a liberal judge can drop the charges because of 180 some cases of wate rboarding.
    And you're basing this on...?

    2. Oh yes she takes her orders from your hero Obama. Obama's Foreign Policy Is Very Much A Continuation Of The Bush Policies - CBS News
    DHS official once referring to "man-caused disasters" somehow equals him ordering the banishment of the term "terrorism"?

    5. You are a joke for not knowing this. Obama spent his formative years in Islamic Madrasahs and before he changed his name it was Barry Soetoro and he changed when he was at Occidental where he stopped being called “Barry” and became Barack Obama a Muslim name as he was enrolled in school as a Muslim. them there is this. Obama: "My Muslim Faith" - Google Videos
    Some would call this Classic Freudian slip. A Freudian slip is defined as; A verbal mistake that is thought to reveal an unconscious belief, thought, or emotion. In other words the truth.
    It is encouraged that Muslims lie to infidels to get their way and he's the champ of all times.
    You're concluding that he's a Muslim based on this and are claiming that I'm a joke?

    6. It is generally those who openly admit to being Liberals that are the first to claim others are being racist because they either have no intelligent response to the facts or they are just trying to redirect focus.
    Not a single thing I wrote is in any way racist it is below the dignity of a true conservative to make such a wild claim.
    It doesn't require one to be liberal or conservative to recognize your bull**** for what it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    This is the one I believe is applicable, and the one I remember reading. Scalia was particularly flummoxed with the majority's opinion:

    Extending Constitutional legal rights to a notorious terrorist mastermind is not justifiable, as is the case concerning Kalid Sheik Mohommad.

    I was just wondering how you felt about the current trial (KSM) and the applicable case law.
    Setting aside how "bad" the guy is due to his actions, there has to be some form of process for dealing with these people. I personally don't see the problem with some form of military commission, provided that it has some decent protections.

    Quote Originally Posted by Albert Di Salvo View Post
    Duration of Gitmo Five Trials: I'm speculating just like you. My speculation is based on the likely magnitude of the pre-trial motions, e.g., change of venue, admissibility of evidence acquired by coercion and duress, etc. These are issues not present in the Padilla and other trials you mentioned.

    Do you have any reason to assume that the trials, probably held sequentially, will have a duration fitting within the Padilla timeframe?
    How do you figure that none of those issues were present in the other cases? The exact same concerns came into play.

    An article I came across discussing this exact topic:

    New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg assured the White House and New Yorkers that the city was capable.

    "We have hosted terrorism trials before," Mr. Bloomberg said, citing the 1995 trial of Sheik Omar Abdel Rahman, the blind Egyptian mastermind of the 1993 World Trade Center bombing, who was convicted, along with other Islamic militants. The New York Police Department, he said, has "experience dealing with high-profile terrorism suspects and any logistical issues that may come up during the trials."

    Costs to the city during the 1995 terrorism trial were reimbursed by the federal government, a Bloomberg spokesman said. City police didn't provide figures.

    The new trial is expected to be lengthy. Mr. Rahman's trial lasted eight months. Depending on the charges, Mr. Mohammed's trial could run as long.
    New York, Court Brace for Logistical Hurdles - WSJ.com

    Not Having The Slightest Clue: You say you don't have the slightest clue what I'm talking about. Are you trying to insult me. If so I assure you there is nothing to gain.
    I'm asking you what you're trying to say. You mentioned that Holder had mad a politicized decision almost a decade ago and then were implying that that had something to do with the logistics of this trial. I don't see how it's relevant.

    Eric Holder has an established record as a political lawyer. In view of the track record he's established the burden of proving nonpolitical intentions is on him, not me.

    Your Evidentiary Assumption: You assume Holder believes there is sufficient evidence to convict in SDNY, and so it isn't necessary to try them before a military tribunal. Maybe so, maybe no. You're excluding political considerations. You have no basis to assume that political considerations are not a contributing cause to the decision to try the Gitmo Five in NY.
    So when I make an assumption based on what I consider fairly obvious logic, you rush to point out that I don't know what's going on. Then, you turn around and argue that because someone once did something political, you assume that everything else that person does going forward is tainted by that. Okay.

    Giddiness of Obama's Base: Don't put words in my mouth. I said this is a sop to Obama's base because it will expose Bush and his administration to opprobrium. I never said Obama's base is giddy at the prospect of being aligned with the 9/11 planners.
    And I think it's nuts to believe that liberals are going to be rushing to latch on to testimony from the guys behind 9/11.

    Do you know what would really make Obama look good politically? 5 quick convictions followed by lethal injections.

    Cost of Trials: Check my posts. I didn't say the trials will cost hundreds of millions of dollars. I asked you how you knew? Stop attributing comments to me that I haven't made. Stop assuming.
    I didn't say you did - I merely asked if you had anything to support the figure that was offered earlier, as I had no reason to believe it would be that high.

    That being said, based on some other articles I came across, it doesn't actually seem that outlandish.

    Former AG Not a Fan of Decision to Try KSM in NYC - Law Blog - WSJ

    As a federal district judge, Mukasey presided over the criminal trial stemming from the 1993 World Trade Center bombing. For some seven years following the suit, Mukasey received protection from U.S. marshals, a detail which cost taxpayers nearly $28 million.
    Post Acquittal Detention Authority: The uproar from exercise of this power is a political consideration that any administration would consider. That's what my comment means.
    So you think the outrage from detaining KSM post-acquittal would be greater than the outrage of letting the mastermind of 9/11 walk free? If not, then I don't see what the point of your comment is.
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

  3. #113
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    Re: New York trial for alleged 9/11 mastermind

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    ....
    How do you figure that none of those issues were present in the other cases? The exact same concerns came into play.

    An article I came across discussing this exact topic:



    New York, Court Brace for Logistical Hurdles - WSJ.com



    I'm asking you what you're trying to say. You mentioned that Holder had mad a politicized decision almost a decade ago and then were implying that that had something to do with the logistics of this trial. I don't see how it's relevant.



    So when I make an assumption based on what I consider fairly obvious logic, you rush to point out that I don't know what's going on. Then, you turn around and argue that because someone once did something political, you assume that everything else that person does going forward is tainted by that. Okay.



    And I think it's nuts to believe that liberals are going to be rushing to latch on to testimony from the guys behind 9/11.

    Do you know what would really make Obama look good politically? 5 quick convictions followed by lethal injections.



    I didn't say you did - I merely asked if you had anything to support the figure that was offered earlier, as I had no reason to believe it would be that high.

    That being said, based on some other articles I came across, it doesn't actually seem that outlandish.

    Former AG Not a Fan of Decision to Try KSM in NYC - Law Blog - WSJ





    So you think the outrage from detaining KSM post-acquittal would be greater than the outrage of letting the mastermind of 9/11 walk free? If not, then I don't see what the point of your comment is.

    Admissibility and venue weren't serious issues in the Padilla case to the best of my knowledge. Padilla wasn't tortured and the exclusionary rule didn't apply. Padilla's trial was in Miami. Miami's juror's didn't reside in the location of a planned terrorist attack. No serious issue over venue as a result. KSM was tortured and Padilla wasn't. Admissibility is a serious issue with KSM. There will be endless motions over each item of evidence. Unlike Padilla, KSM is being tried at the scene of the terrorist attack, and the juror pool will be drawn from the residents of that location. That means voir dire is going to be a lengthy bitch. Moving on.

    I believe the decision to bring the Gitmo Five to trial in SDNY is as much a political decision as a legal decision. One of the reasons I believe that to be the case is because I see Holder (and Obama for that matter) as intensely political animals. I believe Holder is a political animal because of his past actions. I presume that his present actions are consistent with his past actions. The presumption is rebuttable, but Holder has the burden of rebutting the presumption stemming from his past conduct. Let me give you a quasi apt analogy. Lawyers rarely flat out lie to each other because it's dangerous. Nevertheless, someday you will encounter a lawyer who flat out lies to you. Whenever you encounter him or her after that occasion you will presume he is always lying, even twenty years thereafter. Moving on.

    You don't like my tactics? Too slippery? Come on. You of all people should understand the infinite variety of tactics. Tactical experience is the only thing that keeps someone as stupid as me going toe to toe with you. Moving on.

    Giddiness? Yeah, w/e. Costs of trial? Yeah, w/e. Post acquittal detention? Yeah, w/e. What do these three issues have in common with the Okavango River? They peter out.

    Good night. We'll pick this up tomorrow.

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    Re: New York trial for alleged 9/11 mastermind

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    Setting aside how "bad" the guy is due to his actions, there has to be some form of process for dealing with these people.
    I wasn't trying to highlight how bad he was; I was trying to define his legal status.

    He is a notorious terrorist mastermind who declared war on the United States and proceeded to orchestrate a series of attacks on American soil. Because of this he is not protected by the Geneva Conventions and he is not protected by the US Constitution. Morally and legally speaking he is entitled to nothing more than a summary execution, although I wouldn't be totally adverse to an expedient military tribunal where he is identified, sentenced, and shot in the head. Both options are totally justifiable under domestic and international law.

    I personally don't see the problem with some form of military commission, provided that it has some decent protections.
    Would you prefer this to trying KSM in the criminal justice system?

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    Re: New York trial for alleged 9/11 mastermind

    Quote Originally Posted by Albert Di Salvo View Post
    Admissibility and venue weren't serious issues in the Padilla case to the best of my knowledge. Padilla wasn't tortured and the exclusionary rule didn't apply. Padilla's trial was in Miami. Miami's juror's didn't reside in the location of a planned terrorist attack. No serious issue over venue as a result. KSM was tortured and Padilla wasn't. Admissibility is a serious issue with KSM. There will be endless motions over each item of evidence. Unlike Padilla, KSM is being tried at the scene of the terrorist attack, and the juror pool will be drawn from the residents of that location. That means voir dire is going to be a lengthy bitch. Moving on
    There were serious allegations of torture in the Padilla case.

    Was Jose Padilla tortured by US military? | csmonitor.com

    When suspected Al Qaeda operative Jose Padilla was taken into military custody in 2002, his interrogators set out to crush any hope he might have that a neutral judge or a defense lawyer would come to his aid. It is difficult to convince a US citizen that legal protections guaranteed in the Constitution no longer exist for him. But that was the mission of US military interrogators ordered to extract as much intelligence as possible from Mr. Padilla. "Only after such time as Padilla has perceived that help is not on the way can the United States reasonably expect to obtain all possible intelligence information from Padilla," explained Vice Adm. Lowell Jacoby in an affidavit to an inquiring federal judge.

    The statement was made seven months into what became 21 months of strict isolation in a military brig without access to a lawyer or any other human contact besides Padilla's jailers and interrogators. Now, Padilla is facing an April trial in federal court here on charges that he became a willing Al Qaeda recruit in a violent global jihad. But his lawyers complain that Padilla's harsh treatment during nearly four years of military detention and interrogation has left him so psychologically damaged that he is unable to help wage his own defense.

    US District Judge Marcia Cooke is being asked to decide whether Padilla is mentally competent to stand trial. In a hearing before Judge Cooke Friday, federal prosecutors are expected to urge the judge to ignore everything that took place during Padilla's military detention. They say his harsh treatment is irrelevant to whether he is mentally competent to stand trial. Padilla's lawyers disagree. They say their client was tortured by the military and they are asking the judge to order the government to fully account for its treatment of Padilla. "Mr. Padilla is suffering from mental defects stemming from his incarceration in the naval brig," writes Anthony Natale, an assistant federal public defender, in a brief to the court. "The effects of that incarceration ... have left Mr. Padilla in such a psychologically frail posture that he cannot bear to revisit his past and, hence, cannot assist counsel in defending him against the government's allegations."
    The issue of the scope of the judge's inquiry into Padilla's mental condition is important because it could open the door to the first detailed examination of torture allegations made by an alleged enemy combatant.

    Was he tortured? Was he subjected to stress positions and forced hypothermia? Was he administered mind-altering drugs?

    Defense lawyers alleged each of these abuses and more in a motion pending before Cooke to dismiss the entire case against Padilla because the government engaged in outrageous conduct during his military detention.
    The government managed to deal with the abuse arguments and admissibility issues then, and I'm quite confident that they will be able to deal with it now.

    As to venue, we tried and convicted the people behind the first WTC bombing in the exact same courthouse. It wasn't an insurmountable problem then, and don't think it will be an insurmountable problem now (though it may well be more difficult).

    I believe the decision to bring the Gitmo Five to trial in SDNY is as much a political decision as a legal decision. One of the reasons I believe that to be the case is because I see Holder (and Obama for that matter) as intensely political animals. I believe Holder is a political animal because of his past actions. I presume that his present actions are consistent with his past actions. The presumption is rebuttable, but Holder has the burden of rebutting the presumption stemming from his past conduct. Let me give you a quasi apt analogy. Lawyers rarely flat out lie to each other because it's dangerous. Nevertheless, someday you will encounter a lawyer who flat out lies to you. Whenever you encounter him or her after that occasion you will presume he is always lying, even twenty years thereafter. Moving on.
    This all may well be true, but I just don't see it reaching as far as you're implying. Again, I believe the absolute best political outcome for Obama would be 5 quick convictions followed by lethal injections. If Holder is really making his decisions based on politics, then doesn't it stand to reason that that would be his goal?

    I don't buy into the "Obama's a secret Muslim who wants to destroy America" theme and it doesn't seem like you do either, so I'm just having a hard time imagining an outcome on this issue that benefits Obama politically that doesn't also benefit the nation.

    You don't like my tactics? Too slippery? Come on. You of all people should understand the infinite variety of tactics. Tactical experience is the only thing that keeps someone as stupid as me going toe to toe with you. Moving on.

    Giddiness? Yeah, w/e. Costs of trial? Yeah, w/e. Post acquittal detention? Yeah, w/e. What do these three issues have in common with the Okavango River? They peter out.

    Good night. We'll pick this up tomorrow.
    Fair enough.
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

  6. #116
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    Re: New York trial for alleged 9/11 mastermind

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    I wasn't trying to highlight how bad he was; I was trying to define his legal status.

    He is a notorious terrorist mastermind who declared war on the United States and proceeded to orchestrate a series of attacks on American soil. Because of this he is not protected by the Geneva Conventions and he is not protected by the US Constitution. Morally and legally speaking he is entitled to nothing more than a summary execution, although I wouldn't be totally adverse to an expedient military tribunal where he is identified, sentenced, and shot in the head. Both options are totally justifiable under domestic and international law.
    And I agree with almost all of this. I don't think the Geneva Conventions should apply and am uncertain whether he'd have recourse even if they did. Nonetheless, I do think there has to be some sort of process, and implicit in that is some sort of review by a neutral-ish tribunal.

    Would you prefer this to trying KSM in the criminal justice system?
    Depends. If we had overwhelming evidence of guilt that was fully admissible in the civilian courts and would not harm our national security interests in any way, I would think that trying him in the civilian system would be a powerful statement about out commitment to our principles (and would get the ACLU to chill the **** out). However, given that we're leaving another 5 detainees to be tried in the military commissions and even more to just rot in Gitmo, it's not really sending that much of a message.
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

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    Re: New York trial for alleged 9/11 mastermind

    Quote Originally Posted by Laila View Post
    New York trial for alleged 9/11 mastermind - Times Online

    Interesting, they will be tried under a civilian court, I wonder if evidence obtained through questionable means will be dismissed
    Isn't that the whole purpose? I mean we wouldn't want to disappoint Allah.
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    Re: New York trial for alleged 9/11 mastermind

    Quote Originally Posted by Arch Enemy View Post
    I'm not gonna lie.

    This post Gitmo pic is a bit threatening.




    He could pass as a Sesame Street Character.
    Osama bin Loadin' says, "I'm going to Disney World."
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

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    Re: New York trial for alleged 9/11 mastermind

    If these cases are blown, it will be because of the idiotic incompetence of Bush and Cheney. As far as New York being able to handle the security of these guys, bring 'em on.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/14/ny...urity.html?hpw

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    Re: New York trial for alleged 9/11 mastermind

    Quote Originally Posted by Albert Di Salvo View Post
    the juror pool will be drawn from the residents of that location.
    He's going to get what he deserves, to the fullest extent of the law. I'd hate to be his defense council.

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