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Thread: New York trial for alleged 9/11 mastermind

  1. #101
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    Re: New York trial for alleged 9/11 mastermind

    Quote Originally Posted by Albert Di Salvo View Post
    Zacarias Moussaoui, arrested 2001, sentenced 2006.
    Do you have any reason to assume that these trials would be more like the Moussaoui timeframe as opposed to the Padilla/Yousef/Blind Sheik timeframe?

    Eric Holder was the Justice Dept. official who made the political decision during the Clinton Administration to overrule career prosecutors and recommentd the pardon of Marc Rich. Remember? Based on his record political considerations are relevant criteria in the administration of justice. Otherwise, how do you explain the pardon of Marc Rich?
    I don't have the slightest clue what you're trying to argue. Fill in this sentence for me:

    "Eric Holder made a politicized decision dealing with pardons almost a decade ago, so that means _____________ as relating to these terrorism prosecutions today."

    Why has Obama created a two tier system of justice with some detainees receiving trials before a military tribunal and other detainees receiving trials in the federal court system? If you don't know say so and I won't ask again, but don't ask me to have faith in Eric Holder or Obama.
    I would have to assume that it's because he believes that there is enough admissible evidence to win convictions in federal court for these 5 individuals, but isn't convinced of that fact as it applies to the other detainees. That seems like a pretty logical conclusion from my perspective.

    Why do I say this is as much a political decision as a legal decision? The Gitmo Five trials will be a massive anti-American propaganda circus. The defendants will put the prior administration on trial. This will please Obama's base.
    Yes, Obama's base is just giddy over the prospect of aligning themselves with the planners of 9/11.

    Quote Originally Posted by texmaster View Post
    How can you not?

    This is a trial the world will be watching. Do you really think Islamic Terrorists would pass up a chance for that kind of publicity?
    Again, I don't think the danger is any more serious than what we face every day. There are plenty of situations where AQ would love to stage a terrorist attack for the publicity. The inauguration, the world series, the anniversary of 9/11, any one of the dozens of trials that have already occurred, etc.

    You've never had a show trial like this with these kinds of terrorists for defendants.
    We had one with the planners of the first WTC attack, one with the Shoe Bomber, one with the American Taliban, etc. All of those were "media spectacles." None of those resulted in terrorism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Albert Di Salvo View Post
    How do you know? There will be separate trials.
    I don't "know" anything. I'm making an estimate based on the amount of in-court time that these trials will probably take. If you have anything that would lead you to believe that these trials will cost "hundreds of millions," feel free to share it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Albert Di Salvo View Post
    How do you know the truth of the matter you assert on Holder's opinion and actions? Imo it's not humanly possible to know Holder's intentions. Are you speculating? That's ok, but it's not an objectively determinable fact.
    Absolutely nothing about anyone's motivation is an objectively determinable fact. I'm simply looking at the facts and drawing a reasonable conclusion. Do you think that Holder would be bringing these people here for a trial if he weren't convinced that he would get convictions?

    If Obi Wan exercises his post acquittal detention authority there will be an uproar on the American and European left the likes of which none of us has ever seen imo.
    Which means what?
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

  2. #102
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    Re: New York trial for alleged 9/11 mastermind

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    And I'm sure that there's absolutely no other evidence available other than his confession.

    Link?

    Want to bet on it?

    Link to anything suggesting he would have done it, had he been able to?

    No he's not. This garbage is seriously getting old.

    Wow, ignorance and thinkly-veiled racism all rolled up into one unamusing joke. Nice work!
    1. There most certainly is but almost all of it was obtained by the use of torture and a liberal judge can drop the charges because of 180 some cases of wate rboarding.

    2.
    We are no longer fighting a "war on terror." We are instead conducting "overseas contingency operations" and, as Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano said, responding to "mancaused disasters." (Napolitano might have used the gender-neutral "human-caused disasters.")
    Oh yes she takes her orders from your hero Obama. Obama's Foreign Policy Is Very Much A Continuation Of The Bush Policies - CBS News

    3.& 4. These are both my opinion based on the examples that have shown Obama is a racist and clearly favors Muslims.

    5. You are a joke for not knowing this. Obama spent his formative years in Islamic Madrasahs and before he changed his name it was Barry Soetoro and he changed when he was at Occidental where he stopped being called “Barry” and became Barack Obama a Muslim name as he was enrolled in school as a Muslim. them there is this. Obama: "My Muslim Faith" - Google Videos
    Some would call this Classic Freudian slip. A Freudian slip is defined as; A verbal mistake that is thought to reveal an unconscious belief, thought, or emotion. In other words the truth.
    It is encouraged that Muslims lie to infidels to get their way and he's the champ of all times.

    6. It is generally those who openly admit to being Liberals that are the first to claim others are being racist because they either have no intelligent response to the facts or they are just trying to redirect focus.
    Not a single thing I wrote is in any way racist it is below the dignity of a true conservative to make such a wild claim.

    Just about everything Obama has done is either directly Anti-American or Pro- Socialist/Marxist and he has surrounded himself with admited Communists and those who quote and say the admire communists. He also uses radicals and those who are convicted Anti-American bombers and other jail birds. Just listen to his people like Anita Dunn. Oops she was found out and now she's following in the wake of Communist Van Jones.

    I try to base opinions on evidence not wild speculation, but in the end it's still just opinion. But I do back it up with supporting facts even if some of it is just trends Obama has established himself.

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    Re: New York trial for alleged 9/11 mastermind

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    I'm not sure what you're specifically referring to, as there are a multitude of cases dealing with this topic. Everyone being held is entitled to some sort of process, but the question of what that process must entail is incredibly complex. There are cases that fall into almost every category.

    Detainee was captured outside the US outside of a combat zone: Boumedine v. Bush.
    This is the one I believe is applicable, and the one I remember reading. Scalia was particularly flummoxed with the majority's opinion:

    BOUMEDIENE v. BUSH
    SCALIA, J., dissenting

    Today, for the first time in our Nation’s history, the Court confers a constitutional right to habeas corpus on alien enemies detained abroad by our military forces in the course of an ongoing war. THE CHIEF JUSTICE’s dissent, which I join, shows that the procedures prescribed by Congress in the Detainee Treatment Act provide the essential protections that habeas corpus guarantees; there has thus been no suspension of the writ, and no basis exists for judicial intervention beyond what the Act allows. My problem with today’s opinion is more fundamental still: The writ of habeas corpus does not, and never has, run in favor of aliens abroad; the Suspension Clause thus has no application, and the Court’s intervention in this military matter is entirely ultra vires.

    I shall devote most of what will be a lengthy opinion to the legal errors contained in the opinion of the Court. Contrary to my usual practice, however, I think it appropriate to begin with a description of the disastrous consequences of what the Court has done today.

    ...[Last Line]

    The Nation will live to regret what the Court has done today. I dissent.

    http://www.supremecourtus.gov/opinio...df/06-1195.pdf
    Extending Constitutional legal rights to a notorious terrorist mastermind is not justifiable, as is the case concerning Kalid Sheik Mohommad.

    Should someone captured on a battlefield in Afghanstan be treated differently than someone captured while plotting an attack in Pakistan or someone captured while traveling through the US?

    I think the current approach on this is somewhat counterproductive - it offers additional protections to people captured here in the US while giving the fewest freedoms to those captured in Afghanistan. If we're trying to prevent terrorism, who is more dangerous - someone in a cave in Afghanistan or someone who is part of a sleeper cell driving to Chicago O'Hare?

    In summary, I just don't know how I feel about this general approach. If you have a more specific question, I'll try to explain my thoughts on it as best as I can.
    I was just wondering how you felt about the current trial (KSM) and the applicable case law.
    Last edited by Ethereal; 11-13-09 at 10:11 PM.

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    Re: New York trial for alleged 9/11 mastermind

    Quote Originally Posted by Arch Enemy View Post
    I'm not gonna lie.

    This post Gitmo pic is a bit threatening.




    He could pass as a Sesame Street Character.
    Grrrrr. Just shoot that ****er!!! Right in the ****ing face!!! He doesn't deserve a trial...

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    Re: New York trial for alleged 9/11 mastermind

    Quote Originally Posted by ScottD View Post
    Who says we are putting on a show? We are standing for our ideals, not making a Broadway play.

    A trial was done for the soldiers in the Boston Massacre, a trial was done for the perpetrator of the Oklahoma City bombing, a trial has been done for many people, no matter how atrocious their crimes, no matter how obvious their guilt. Never failed us yet, why stop now?
    But, for who? Who is this really for? Personally, I think this is nothing but a feel good moment for the Libbos, as if there are good sportsmanship awards in a war.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: New York trial for alleged 9/11 mastermind

    Obama Bin Laden IS NOT a Muslim (in today's definition).


    I would, however, like to see your quotes from the Quran that say that Muslims are "encouraged that Muslims lie to infidels to get their way and he's the champ of all times."

    Unless, the encouragement is subjective within the Muslim faith
    "I do not underestimate the ability of fanatical groups of terrorists to kill and destroy, but they do not threaten the life of the nation. Whether we would survive Hitler hung in the balance, but there is no doubt that we shall survive al-Qa'ida." -- Lord Hoffmann

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    Re: New York trial for alleged 9/11 mastermind

    Quote Originally Posted by ScottD View Post
    This nation was founded upon the idea of everyone, no matter what the case, having rights when in the US. Practicing the ideal is far from stupid. I applaud Obama for this decision, when these terrorists are found guilty in a fair court, it will be a day that we show that we will not forfeit our ideals to fear.
    What planet are you from my left wing friend........This country was based on rights for its CITIZENS not a bunch of whacked out terrorists who wear no uniforms and represent no country...These thugs should be tried in military tribunals just like the NAZIS were at Nurenburg.........Your socialist leader is clueless...........I guess if people like you had their way we would have tried the thousands of POWs we had at the end of WW2 in civil courts.....This is a terrible mistake and you will find that out soon enough.........Giving these radicals a stage around the world is crazy......
    "God Bless Our Troops in Harms Way."

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    Re: New York trial for alleged 9/11 mastermind

    Guiliani just scorched Obama over this and he is absolutely right. This trial is a terrible idea. This might be the WORST decision made by the Obama administraion thus far; truly awful. He makes an excellent case against this trial:

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6jS-LJpG3HI"]YouTube- Rudy Giuliani on KSM's trial in NYC (1 of 2)[/ame]
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_aBn73x8kjM"]YouTube- Rudy Giuliani on KSM's trial in NYC (2 of 2)[/ame]

  9. #109
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    Re: New York trial for alleged 9/11 mastermind

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    Do you have any reason to assume that these trials would be more like the Moussaoui timeframe as opposed to the Padilla/Yousef/Blind Sheik timeframe?



    I don't have the slightest clue what you're trying to argue. Fill in this sentence for me:

    "Eric Holder made a politicized decision dealing with pardons almost a decade ago, so that means _____________ as relating to these terrorism prosecutions today."



    I would have to assume that it's because he believes that there is enough admissible evidence to win convictions in federal court for these 5 individuals, but isn't convinced of that fact as it applies to the other detainees. That seems like a pretty logical conclusion from my perspective.



    Yes, Obama's base is just giddy over the prospect of aligning themselves with the planners of 9/11.



    ....


    We had one with the planners of the first WTC attack, one with the Shoe Bomber, one with the American Taliban, etc. All of those were "media spectacles." None of those resulted in terrorism.



    I don't "know" anything. I'm making an estimate based on the amount of in-court time that these trials will probably take. If you have anything that would lead you to believe that these trials will cost "hundreds of millions," feel free to share it.



    Absolutely nothing about anyone's motivation is an objectively determinable fact. I'm simply looking at the facts and drawing a reasonable conclusion. Do you think that Holder would be bringing these people here for a trial if he weren't convinced that he would get convictions?



    Which means what?
    Duration of Gitmo Five Trials: I'm speculating just like you. My speculation is based on the likely magnitude of the pre-trial motions, e.g., change of venue, admissibility of evidence acquired by coercion and duress, etc. These are issues not present in the Padilla and other trials you mentioned.

    Do you have any reason to assume that the trials, probably held sequentially, will have a duration fitting within the Padilla timeframe?

    Not Having The Slightest Clue: You say you don't have the slightest clue what I'm talking about. Are you trying to insult me. If so I assure you there is nothing to gain. Eric Holder has an established record as a political lawyer. In view of the track record he's established the burden of proving nonpolitical intentions is on him, not me.

    Your Evidentiary Assumption: You assume Holder believes there is sufficient evidence to convict in SDNY, and so it isn't necessary to try them before a military tribunal. Maybe so, maybe no. You're excluding political considerations. You have no basis to assume that political considerations are not a contributing cause to the decision to try the Gitmo Five in NY.

    Giddiness of Obama's Base: Don't put words in my mouth. I said this is a sop to Obama's base because it will expose Bush and his administration to opprobrium. I never said Obama's base is giddy at the prospect of being aligned with the 9/11 planners.

    Cost of Trials: Check my posts. I didn't say the trials will cost hundreds of millions of dollars. I asked you how you knew? Stop attributing comments to me that I haven't made. Stop assuming.

    Objective Determination of Holder's Intentions: Again you are guessing that Holder's intentions are purely legal based on your exclusion of political considerations. At best Holder probably has mixed motives, both legal and political.

    Post Acquittal Detention Authority: The uproar from exercise of this power is a political consideration that any administration would consider. That's what my comment means.

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    Re: New York trial for alleged 9/11 mastermind

    They are not US military personnel and they did not commit a crime directly against the US military.

    They committed a crime against the community of New York City where they will be tried.

    They will be found guilty. And they will probably sit on death row for the rest of their lives.

    It is where they belong for what they did against the community of NYC, so it is where they will go. It is what it is.

    Like they say, if you can't do the time, don't do the crime.

    The only thing between it happening is time. And the US justice system is not fast, but it is thorough - so it won't take too long.

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