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Thread: Paratrooper's Mom Begs Obama: 'End It'

  1. #321
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    Re: Paratrooper's Mom Begs Obama: 'End It'

    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Spiker View Post
    ....
    Maybe your reasons would make perfect sense to me and others if you took the time to explain it. But as it stands, for no reason you and quite a few others feel that taking an alternative approach to reach the goal is the same as defeat.

    However, you're smart enough to know that it's not the same as defeat and something is preventing you from just saying it. It's ok - you're not the only pro-war person to ever have the view and express it, but not explain it.

    It makes no sense to support a war effort - without explaining your reasons....

    I declare the "I don't want to be defeated" to be
    What is victory? Imo victory is accomplishing one's political and military objectives. What are America's objectives in Afghanistan? What are Obama's objectives? I think America's objective is to prevent Americans from dying on American soil as a result of planning and actions taken on Afghan or Pakistani soil by Islamists. Can this be accomplished by means other than by counterinsurgency operations? I don't know.

    But I do know that Obama has said he will not reduce the troops in the Af/Pak theater. From this I conclude Obama intends to continue military operations, and may very well escalate the war by sending perhaps as many as 40,000 additional soldiers and marines. Assuming my conclusion is correct the question becomes is this what Obama should do in order to accomplish America's objective in the Af/Pak theater? I don't know for certain.

    I'm not a military man so I don't have the perspective a soldier might have. However, within the limits of my perspective I see what Obama is likely to do in that theater of war and I have reached several conclusions.

    My conclusions are based on an analysis of what I perceive to be facts. America can theoretically win an armed struggle against the Pashtun insurgencies if several conditions exist. I don't believe the conditions exist which permit a victory in the war Obama intends to pursue.

    A surge of forces into Afghanistan will not have the same effect as the surge in Iraq did. I say this because the correlation of forces are so different as between the two theaters of war. I will not list the differences here, but will if you specifically request it. However, I don't have unlimited time to devote to your question so please bear that in mind.

    Because of the correlation of forces in the Af/Pak theater any military victory would only come after years, perhaps a decade, of struggle, casualties, deaths, and expense. I don't think the American peoples will support such a course of action. Look at the divisions among Americans today. Americans may be prepared to fight a civil war with each other, but they are not prepared to support the troops in the Af/Pak theater as they wage a long twilight struggle.

    The American military and their families compose perhaps one percent of the populace. They bear the burdens of war exclusively. They are exhausted. To win the war without destroying our warrior class it would be necessary to substantially increase the size of the Army and Marine Corp. We don't have the money to do that. So we will continue to place the complete burden of war on a segment of the citizenry that has been exhausted. Given enough stress everything breaks.

    I look at the Commander in Chief and I see a man who wants to be a domestic policy president, not a war president. Obama sees what happened to Bush on Iraq and doesn't want the same thing to happen to him over Af/Pak. From this observation I conclude that in the face of internal American division Obama will not be willing to do whatever is necessary to achieve victory. Sending troops into combat without the intention of achieving victory is profoundly immoral.

    I look at the international scene. I have extensive contacts with Chinese people. What do they say about the American operations in Afghanistan? They are pleased to see America commit the lives of our men and women, and our diminishing treasure, into a conflict we do not intend to win. It weakens us and strengthens them.

    I look at what I perceive to be the facts and I reach the following ultimate conclusions. We won't achieve a military victory in the Af/Pak theater. Obama is reckless with the lives of our men and women because he won't do everything required to achieve victory, e.g., gambling his presidency on the outcome like Bush did on Iraq.

    Since Obama won't do everything necessary to achieve victory in the Af/Pak theater all of our forces should be brought home immediately. Our men and women should not die or be injured in a fruitless struggle that we don't intend to win.

    Will the Pashtun insurgencies and Al Qaeda claim to to have defeated America? Yes. Will they be right? Probably in the sense they have broken the will of the American peoples. Will Afghanistan and Pakistan be used to plan and implement attacks on the American homeland. Probably. But it doesn't matter as much as the real struggle that must be waged.

    What is the real struggle that must be waged? Look at the divisions among the American peoples. Over the course of the last thirty years the bonds uniting us have become attenuated. We are so divided as a people we can't even name the enemy we are supposed to be fighting. Americans will not support war overseas. So they will face war on American soil. They will have no choice, but to fight.

    As you may have gathered, I am not an Obama supporter. Since America must withdraw completely from the Af/Pak theater I would like to see the withdrawal used against Obama. Obama's domestic opposition will be able to argue that Obama has led America to military defeat. The charge will be an effective weapon against him. Remember, it was Obama's own man Rahm Emmanuel who said something to the effect that each crisis should be seen as an opportunity, i.e., don't let any crisis go to waste.

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    Re: Paratrooper's Mom Begs Obama: 'End It'

    Quote Originally Posted by EpicDude86 View Post
    Hurr Durr Teabaggers for one.
    I must have missed their episode on patriotism.
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    Re: Paratrooper's Mom Begs Obama: 'End It'

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    I must have missed their episode on patriotism.
    No no, you saw it, but after catching the past 8 years of liberal "patriotism" it looks like dissent to you.

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    Re: Paratrooper's Mom Begs Obama: 'End It'

    Quote Originally Posted by EpicDude86 View Post
    No no, you saw it, but after catching the past 8 years of liberal "patriotism" it looks like dissent to you.
    You may have to actually post a source, I have never heard patriotism discussed by the teabaggers.

    And this based on our moderate president basically following the same foreign policy as his predecessors?
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: Paratrooper's Mom Begs Obama: 'End It'

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    You may have to actually post a source, I have never heard patriotism discussed by the teabaggers.
    Never heard them discuss what you think is Patriotism? or Patriotism in general? Maybe you're just not watching enough Faux News or YouTube.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    And this based on our moderate president basically following the same foreign policy as his predecessors?
    Moderate? Hmmm...I wonder...Can you see the game being played in front of you? It's being played with your livelihood, by the way. Politics isn't about giving the people what they need, it's about giving them what they want to hear. And most people, people like you or me not included, buy into this and go for whoever will give them more or whoever is prettier, etc.

    Modern Politics in this country are like High School SGA Elections. Each candidate promises fruit punch in the water fountains and more recess, regardless of whether they can really achieve that. And then, sometimes seemingly out of spite alone, the opposing side will cause friction. There are no 2 parties, there is rarely anyone that is genuine, and even less of those actually want what their constituents want. It's just Us, and them. And what's sad is most people see them and take sides of the Politicians, further splitting it up into Us and our legion of goons and Them and their legion of goons.

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    Re: Paratrooper's Mom Begs Obama: 'End It'

    Quote Originally Posted by EpicDude86 View Post
    Never heard them discuss what you think is Patriotism? or Patriotism in general? Maybe you're just not watching enough Faux News or YouTube.

    Moderate? Hmmm...I wonder...Can you see the game being played in front of you? It's being played with your livelihood, by the way. Politics isn't about giving the people what they need, it's about giving them what they want to hear. And most people, people like you or me not included, buy into this and go for whoever will give them more or whoever is prettier, etc.

    Modern Politics in this country are like High School SGA Elections. Each candidate promises fruit punch in the water fountains and more recess, regardless of whether they can really achieve that. And then, sometimes seemingly out of spite alone, the opposing side will cause friction. There are no 2 parties, there is rarely anyone that is genuine, and even less of those actually want what their constituents want. It's just Us, and them. And what's sad is most people see them and take sides of the Politicians, further splitting it up into Us and our legion of goons and Them and their legion of goons.
    Oh, I thought you were talking about real life.

    So you wanted Kucinich too???

    We get the government we deserve. Our representatives are no better or worse than the people they represent.

    Given that, Obama is the best we could hope for.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: Paratrooper's Mom Begs Obama: 'End It'

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Oh, I thought you were talking about real life.
    Yeah, I figured you'd say something to that effect.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    So you wanted Kucinich too???


    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    We get the government we deserve. Our representatives are no better or worse than the people they represent.
    That's a slap in the face to a lot of honest, Patriotic Americans who aren't represented or who get shat upon by their elected official or Government.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Given that, Obama is the best we could hope for.
    BWAHAHAHAHA, Right. That's a good one. Even I could do a better job than Obama.

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    Re: Paratrooper's Mom Begs Obama: 'End It'

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    We get the government we deserve. Our representatives are no better or worse than the people they represent.

    Given that, Obama is the best we could hope for.
    What Catawba is trying to say is that the people of USA must really suck balls if Obama is the head of the government we deserve.

    If Obama is no better or worse than the people he represents, we all are doomed.
    "I condemn the ideology of White Supremacy and Nazism. They are thugs, criminals, and repugnant, and are against what I believe to be "The American Way" "
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  9. #329
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    Re: Paratrooper's Mom Begs Obama: 'End It'

    Quote Originally Posted by Albert Di Salvo View Post
    *snip*
    Everything you said up until this point in your reply I absolutely agree with, so I won't repost it. . .we're of like minds of many issues. **

    Will the Pashtun insurgencies and Al Qaeda claim to to have defeated America? Yes. Will they be right? Probably in the sense they have broken the will of the American peoples. Will Afghanistan and Pakistan be used to plan and implement attacks on the American homeland. Probably. But it doesn't matter as much as the real struggle that must be waged.
    True, they will claim victory. But so did Ramesses II after his defeat by the Hittites. . . But history always reveals the truth and the people who cling to the lie just look foolish, so I'm not worried about that.

    What is the real struggle that must be waged? Look at the divisions among the American peoples. Over the course of the last thirty years the bonds uniting us have become attenuated. We are so divided as a people we can't even name the enemy we are supposed to be fighting. Americans will not support war overseas. So they will face war on American soil. They will have no choice, but to fight.
    Our "not in my back yard" attitude is a bit hypocritical and has kept us in a protected bubble for quite some time - attacks on our soil have been sparse in comparison to the massive destrution worldwide during crisis and wartime.
    Americans are lucky and we don't even know how lucky we are.

    As you may have gathered, I am not an Obama supporter. Since America must withdraw completely from the Af/Pak theater I would like to see the withdrawal used against Obama. Obama's domestic opposition will be able to argue that Obama has led America to military defeat. The charge will be an effective weapon against him. Remember, it was Obama's own man Rahm Emmanuel who said something to the effect that each crisis should be seen as an opportunity, i.e., don't let any crisis go to waste.
    Same here - except I don't want it to be used against him. I don't support him, much, but I never like our presidents being painted negatively. Even if they bring it on theirselves like Bush did.

    So, overall, you seem like *you* wouldn't consider *us* to be defeated, but you think that others would feel that way - and that's what you want to avoid.

    Putting it that way, I can understand. I don't feel the same way, of course, because it's extremely personal for me . . . but I get your view.

    Thanks for taking the time to answer me! I've heard the "pulling out is defeat" alot - but not many have seriously taken the time to explain it, leaving me to question the reasons.
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    Re: Paratrooper's Mom Begs Obama: 'End It'

    Quote Originally Posted by EpicDude86 View Post
    That's a slap in the face to a lot of honest, Patriotic Americans who aren't represented or who get shat upon by their elected official or Government.
    The people have the power to elect whoever they wish, yet we rarely have over half the people voting. If everyone did their duty by voting, the bad actors would be voted out of office. The slap in the face is only half the people voting.

    As I said, we get the government we deserve.
    Last edited by Catawba; 11-19-09 at 12:17 PM.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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