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Thread: Paratrooper's Mom Begs Obama: 'End It'

  1. #291
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    Re: Paratrooper's Mom Begs Obama: 'End It'

    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Spiker View Post
    Thank you - I didn't see it.

    Ok - I read it, it's short and simple. . . but there are a few issues.



    So, here they're saying that for the really big groups - military force is advisable.

    It is estimated there are less than 100 al Qaeda in Afghanistan.

    But since military force hasn't worked with A-Q then we should approach them as we would smaller groups (police and government venues).

    And therein lies our problem and goal - to assist, support and rebuild their governments so that can be done. . .

    Not the role of combat troops that the report highlighted was counter productive.

    That's what we did in Iraq and that's what we should do in Afghanistan, if that's to be our continued focus.

    No we helped set up puppet governments in Iraq and Afghanistan.

    However, how can one rebuild and support a government when the government and police force is, also, infiltrated by the group (one or many) that we're trying to weed out?

    If we take away their ability to recruit new members than they will just fade away as a real threat. Our war on terror with our killing of thousands of innocent civilians has accomplished just the opposite, which is why the Rand Corp. determined it to be counter productive.


    Or, if not, then they're so set in their ways they're not open to change and certain levels of help (as it was with Iraq).

    Afghanistan has always been governed in a tribal fashion. Our western notion of a centralized president ruling the country is not realistic.

    I agree, partially...

    However (the last part) I don't agree with - the "common criminal" VS "terrorist" treatment doesn't fly with me yet.
    *if* our military was *not* involved then perhaps. But so long as they're acting against our soldiers they are soldiers from the opposing force and not just common criminals. (my opinion, anyway). However, I'm aware that it might be a psychological-issue. They are fighting a holy-war and so if they think they're fighting it and they think that we believe it's their holy war, then that miht enourage them and bring them together.

    The killing of innocent civilians has always galvanized opposition to the occupation. The Rand Report drew similar conclusions in their research of terrorists.

    So, aside that, they can only be combatants or criminals if we remove our military force completely and assist in reforming their countries in other ways.
    If you are saying we can accomplish more through humanitarian assistance than through military OPS, then I agree.
    Last edited by Catawba; 11-17-09 at 03:18 AM.
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  2. #292
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    Re: Paratrooper's Mom Begs Obama: 'End It'

    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Spiker View Post
    If we can't even weed gang-activity and crimes of that nature (which we were waging a heaven war against up until our focus shifted) out of our own country I don't see how we're suppose to help the world weed it out of their own corners. The whole focus is very lopsided and has lost it's way - long ago. . . and is just a drain, now.

    I'm sure Obama will bring everyone home and refocus our goals - but he's just taking so long to do it. For some reason he just can't say "ok, enough" ... ??
    I've always thought Obama was too much of a moderate when it comes to foreign policy, but with the growing public opposition to our war in Afghanistan, and our growing national debt already totaling 3 trillion for our "war on terror", and the report from the Rand Corp. that we have been counter-productive in our war efforts, I am sure it is just a matter of time before he sees the wisdom of bringing our combat troops home.
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  3. #293
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    Re: Paratrooper's Mom Begs Obama: 'End It'

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    I am a citizen of the America that has Middle East wars instead of a domestic energy program. Which America are you with?

    You cannot determine success or defeat without the correct strategy. Have you read the report to the Pentagon by the Rand Corp?

    I am a citizen of the America that doesn't engage in sophistry.

    You haven't answered my question. Instead, you've responded to a question that I didn't ask.

    I'll try again. All other things being equal, as a general matter of morality, if your president refuses to withdraw American forces from Afghanistan, do you wish to see the soldiers of your country return victorious or in defeat?

    If you are not willing to answer the question I've asked, on the terms that I've defined, then don't respond. I'm not asking you to debate. I'm just asking a question.

    Subsequent to my posing the question to you, you ask me if I've read the Rand Report. In polite society you don't get to ask me a question until you've answered my prior question posed to you.

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    Re: Paratrooper's Mom Begs Obama: 'End It'

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    I've always thought Obama was too much of a moderate when it comes to foreign policy, but with the growing public opposition to our war in Afghanistan, and our growing national debt already totaling 3 trillion for our "war on terror", and the report from the Rand Corp. that we have been counter-productive in our war efforts, I am sure it is just a matter of time before he sees the wisdom of bringing our combat troops home.
    When he does, though - it won't be for those reason.

    He seems the least bit concerned with what people think of him - obviously. And by far even less concerned with reports and advice from those who know what they're talking about (case nd point - the Rand report).
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    Re: Paratrooper's Mom Begs Obama: 'End It'

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    I've always thought Obama was too much of a moderate when it comes to foreign policy, but with the growing public opposition to our war in Afghanistan, and our growing national debt already totaling 3 trillion for our "war on terror", and the report from the Rand Corp. that we have been counter-productive in our war efforts, I am sure it is just a matter of time before he sees the wisdom of bringing our combat troops home.
    And it will insure that he is a one term president.

    He'll be known as the only president in history that retreated in the face of the enemy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Paratrooper's Mom Begs Obama: 'End It'

    Quote Originally Posted by Albert Di Salvo View Post
    I am a citizen of the America that doesn't engage in sophistry.

    You haven't answered my question. Instead, you've responded to a question that I didn't ask.

    I'll try again. All other things being equal, as a general matter of morality, if your president refuses to withdraw American forces from Afghanistan, do you wish to see the soldiers of your country return victorious or in defeat?

    If you are not willing to answer the question I've asked, on the terms that I've defined, then don't respond. I'm not asking you to debate. I'm just asking a question.

    Subsequent to my posing the question to you, you ask me if I've read the Rand Report. In polite society you don't get to ask me a question until you've answered my prior question posed to you.
    Altering your approach to a larger situation isn't necessarily victory or defeat.

    Why are you looking at it so black and white - the reason why this is so complicated is because it is not black and white.

    Why do you consider taking an alternative approach (non military) to be 'defeat?'
    Last edited by Aunt Spiker; 11-17-09 at 11:37 AM.
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    Re: Paratrooper's Mom Begs Obama: 'End It'

    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Spiker View Post
    Altering your approach to a larger situation isn't necessarily victory or defeat.

    Why are you looking at it so black and white - the reason why this is so complicated is because it is not black and white.

    Why do you consider taking an alternative approach (non military) to be 'defeat?'
    The reason it's so complicated, is because people are making it complicated. It's really not that hard.

    You kill the enemy and destroy his will/ability to wage war.

    By doing so, you give the government the security and confidence it needs to evolve into a stable entity.

    It ain't rocket science.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Paratrooper's Mom Begs Obama: 'End It'

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    The reason it's so complicated, is because people are making it complicated. It's really not that hard.

    You kill the enemy and destroy his will/ability to wage war.

    By doing so, you give the government the security and confidence it needs to evolve into a stable entity.

    It ain't rocket science.
    If it was not hard, we would have won already. The truth is, this is hard. We don't know all the enemy, we cannot easily identify them, and mistakes on our part breed more of the enemy.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

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    Re: Paratrooper's Mom Begs Obama: 'End It'

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    The reason it's so complicated, is because people are making it complicated. It's really not that hard.

    You kill the enemy and destroy his will/ability to wage war.

    By doing so, you give the government the security and confidence it needs to evolve into a stable entity.

    It ain't rocket science.


    In fact, it does involve rocket science and it is far more complicated than any of our wars we've fought in the past - why do you think otherwise?
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    It has happened before, but there is nothing to compare it to now.
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    Re: Paratrooper's Mom Begs Obama: 'End It'

    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Spiker View Post
    Altering your approach to a larger situation isn't necessarily victory or defeat.

    Why are you looking at it so black and white - the reason why this is so complicated is because it is not black and white.

    Why do you consider taking an alternative approach (non military) to be 'defeat?'
    I am not debating the subject of this thread. Rather, I'm trying to understand where Cat is coming from because he said something that interested me. Cat has emphasized the importance of morality in the conduct of American foreign policy. So I've posed a question to him to get some insight into the parameters of his morality.

    If Cat answers my question I may gain some insight and learn something. Or I may be amused.

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