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Thread: Paratrooper's Mom Begs Obama: 'End It'

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    Re: Paratrooper's Mom Begs Obama: 'End It'

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    The insurgency wasn't mostly foreign, but there was a foreign faction to it.
    And I absolutely understand and agree with that. That simple fact is without dispute. It's the assertion that it's "largely non-Iraqi" that I have an issue with.
    *insert profound statement here*

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    Re: Paratrooper's Mom Begs Obama: 'End It'

    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
    You're suggesting the insurgency is largely foreign in nature? If so provide some source for this. Because I've done some very brief research that debunks this idea thoroughly.

    Or am I misunderstanding what you're saying here?
    In iraq, most of the insurgents were import models, especially later in the game.

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    Re: Paratrooper's Mom Begs Obama: 'End It'

    Quote Originally Posted by GySgt View Post
    Good god. Are we all still being too simple? Still too stupid to understand how absolutely contradictory and pathetic we are?

    - The same leftist pieces of garbage in the world that has a love affair for pointing out America's Cold War sins with dictators immediately jumped to criticize America for refusing to continue a Cold War mission in regards to Saddam Hussein.

    - The same pieces of garbage in America who seek to drag America through the mud over Hussein absolutely deny that for twelve years we placed troops in and out of Iraq to deal with humanitarian issues, denied him his right to fly his own military jets over his own soil, denied him trade, and looked away as long as his UN starvation tactics didn't interfere with oil flow. "Soveriegnty" mattered only in 2003.

    - The same war protestors who painted their little signs and looked for dates at college universities boasted their heartfelt feelings of "No-War-For-Oil." But somehow containing (and maintaining his family inheriting regime) the dictator, that we should have killed long ago, as he starved out his people and toyed with the U.S. military while making the UN look like the fool it is...for oil....was something to pretend wasn't happening. After all, why go to war for oil when we can simply pretend that we aren't dragging our values through the mud for it?

    - The same fools who read Osama Bin Laden's letter to the American people and found understanding or disgust glossed completely over the part where he used the "starving children of Iraq" and the "escallation of troops in holy lands" as a justification. These same people denied the fact that this escallation occurred because of Hussein's continual games with our military. That Iraqi children were starving under UN mandates and scandels with American muscle enforcing it. They instead preached about how our historical sins with the Middle East has created our enemies (Osama said so) with a disregard for what had happened since 1991. I guess the mission was to go on forever until he died of natural causes...or his son died...or his other son died....or his entire regime of nasties died of SARS. In the mean time, the UN mission, which was abandoned by just about all of the other nations who rogered up to the burden in 1991, could go ahead and serve as justifications for any other terrorist lunatic that wanted to punish America for the way the wind blows.


    No matter where American troops go, there will always be a support given to what we are fighting. Or is the Black Hawk Down incident of Somalia supposed to take humanitarian missions off the table too? You want to fix this problem and set America up with a long view of security? It starts with the region, not an idiot in a cave who is merely a symptom of the cancerous Middle East. But I don't know. Maybe we can put this in terms of law enforcement. If the police go into a neighborhood to address gang land thugs (Afghanistan) or another neighborhood where drug dealers aren't really hurting anybody (Iraq), perhaps they should first consider pretending that all is well just in case they create more criminals by disrupting the careful balance people have become accustomed to. And the neighborhood itself? Surely correcting it will make it better for the citizens and thusly less likely to breed further criminals in mass, but maybe we should just accept the breeding and keep hitting symptoms instead for the illusion of progress.

    This ridiculous idea that America creates enemies by crossing the ocean to adress people that hate us already is pointless. These ****ers are already our enemies. They merely lack the very small instigation to start killing. They already slaughter each other and look away as long as the tribe dying is the other one. Why would thery hesitate to kill a few Americans who represent that European "western" imperialism that is blamed for everything? At no time in our history has our enemies, once the war was taken to their territory, mounted counterattacks upon our soil. Since we are dealing with terrorists, we have to accept that even if America rejects 99 attempts, there will be the one that sneaks in. This is the price of not taking this crap anymore. Or was the American military, who was taking this crap since Beirut, supposed to go ahead and embrace our enemy as something untouchable until enough American civilians were killed? Maybe something like 9/11 will wake the morons up. Or maybe not.
    Yes, yes, all us liberals hate America and spit on the flag. We have heard this all before, it's weak, it's cheap, and it's bull****. Good god what an asshole. Grow up for gods sake and learn to debate politics without the overwrought rhetoric.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

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    Re: Paratrooper's Mom Begs Obama: 'End It'

    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
    Please explain. Who is complaining about a refusal to continue a Cold War mission? Can you give some examples because I'm not following your argument.
    America is "guilty" for the Shah. It is "guilty" for supporting the House of Saud. It is "guilty" for supporting Israel at all costs. It is "guilty" for those few dictators in South America. But when it came to pushing Saddam Hussein back into Iraq and preserving him (containing him) for oil stability....we look away?

    The entire mission of the Cold War was about beating the Soviets at their own game and denying them the resources needed to make militaries powerful. After this it was all about regional stability no matter the cost. This is where the dictators came in. And why was Saddam HUssein preserved after the Gulf War for twelve years?



    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
    So it was the leftists who did this?
    I didn't mention "leftists" in that part.

    ...and by the way, I use the term "leftist" to describe the global anti-Americanists who cannot fathom a world where anyone but America takes responsibility for itself. Communists and socialists usually fit into the category as does anybody else who was denied glory because of American intervention in the 20th century.

    Liberals and Democrats are something else.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
    There are plenty of dictators starving their people out all over the place.
    And how many of those are doing so while we maintain his existence under UN demands? How many of those dictators have history with us making them "our" dictator? How many of those can affect an entire world's oil supply by misbehaving? How many of them were made a personal mission for America? There are many reasons to go to war. You have just convinced yourself that it takes a 9/11 or a Pearl Harbor to conduct one. By reducing the situation to the simple, "there are lots of dictators," you are doing exactly what my post called out. You are denying our personal history in this just to deny responsibility.

    But like it or not, we did it. And like it or not, we will do it again when necessary.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
    Lol...what games Gunny? Regardless of the "games" he played, can you please explain to us what actual threat Iraq was?
    Who cares about a threat? He was our mission. Was Germany a threat after we reached the German border? Yet we went on. Was Japan a threat after we attackd into the Pacific? Yet we moved on. The Gulf War never ended.

    Are you aware that Clinton attacked Iraq no less than 4 separate times in his presedency and it all revolved around his game playing? That everytime Hussein mobilized his troops to the Kuwaiti border, we did the same and sent more and more troops into the region because of it? The Gulf War was simply paused with the expectations that he fullfill his part of the bargain. He refused enough times and we looked away enough times. In 2003, we finished the job. But like I stated, had we simply finished the job in 1991, there would not have been a 9/11. No "starving children of Iraq" to point out and no "escallation of troops" to bring attention to.



    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
    Our response to 9/11 exactly what OBL had been seeking for years. A heavy handed, ill conceived war of aggression that was so misguided that it set the world back on it's heels.
    Now, I make it a point to make these issues a matter of personal and professional study of mine. I happen to know that Osama Bin Laden's "want" was to provoke America into a war against "Muslims," which he was already waging against our military since 1993. I also know that him being disgusted over who Saddam Hussein was had nothing to do with his 9/11, yet he used it to justify dead Americans. What he had hoped for was an American response into Afghanistan and hoped that the entire Middle East would rise up to fight. When Iraq occurred, he sought to run America out and establish another base of operations in the heartland of Islam.

    ....This did not happen. The people of the Middle East largely proved that he was just one of about tens of thousands who made the entire Middle East pay for a stupid act of terrorism. Instead of "rallying the troops," his minions have been slaughtered in Iraq and Afghanistan and in the Phillipines and in Africa and instead of two Muslim nations that center on Sharia he made possible two western style democracies, one right smack in the center of Islam heaven.

    Osama Bin Laden got what he wanted? Hardly.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
    Let me ask you this Gunny...how is that we are to follow our own strategies for foreign internal defense and counter insurgency when our first act as occupiers is to dismantle the very governmental structure we are supposed to support?
    We went to war against the government. The large majority of the population had spent the last three decades being abused by the standing Sunni military. Are you actually still attached to the aqrgument that would see us maintain the Nazi government after taking down Berlin? Or expect the Jews of Germany to accept that their abusers still remain in power? Our first act of occupation should have been martial law. But that wouldn't look good would it? Somehow it was far more humane to watch them organize at night and slaughter each other in what the media mistakenly dubbed a "civil war."

    ...By the way, your ciritcisms of the war should be more towards how screwed up they conducted it, not that they did it. None of this should have cost this much and none of this should have been so bloody. But this is what happens when civilians seek to preach to the military about how they are supposed to accomplish a mission.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post

    I've never seen you or anyone else on this forum articulate an actual necessity for the invasion of Iraq.
    Well, you never will because you are determined to look away form what we were doing for the twelve years prior that instigated 9/11. For you and plenty of others, it is far simpler to pretend that our beef is with a lone bearded man that may or may not be still alive (he's dead by the way) in a cave sdomewhere in Afghanistan.

    I keep stating this....if we had just finished our jhob in 1991 and did not create our mission with Iraq throughout the 90s decade, would there have been 9/11? The answer tells you exactly what Iraq had to do with the event. Would our embassies have been bombed? Would our Naval ship been bombed? Air Force barracks? What would have really happened on 9/11 if we hadn't parked an ever growing American military in the heartland of Islam to deal with this prick?

    Pretend all you want, but our situation in regards to Iraq is exactly what spurred Osama Bin Laden and Al-Queda. The Tali-Ban just liked his beard.

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    Re: Paratrooper's Mom Begs Obama: 'End It'

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Yes, yes, all us liberals hate America and spit on the flag. We have heard this all before, it's weak, it's cheap, and it's bull****. Good god what an asshole. Grow up for gods sake and learn to debate politics without the overwrought rhetoric.
    I didn't mention "liberals" at all. And I referred to "leftist" in regards to "the world" in only one part.

    Why are you people so defensive?
    Last edited by MSgt; 11-15-09 at 07:45 PM.

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    Re: Paratrooper's Mom Begs Obama: 'End It'

    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
    You're suggesting the insurgency is largely foreign in nature? If so provide some source for this. Because I've done some very brief research that debunks this idea thoroughly.

    Or am I misunderstanding what you're saying here?
    I am "stating" that the initial insurgency was largely made up of international players and Al-Queda managed to organize them with local fighters. Fallujah I and II? Al-Queda heavy. As the international players slowed because they recognized that they were merely going to the slaughter, Iraqi players began to emerge and take charge.

    But even our local enemies were merely Sunni tribesman that couldn't fathom that the Shia had power now. These are enemies that already existed. In fact, many were wearing Iraqi uniforms prior to our invasion. All they needed was an American to stand before them.
    Last edited by MSgt; 11-15-09 at 07:53 PM.

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    Re: Paratrooper's Mom Begs Obama: 'End It'

    Quote Originally Posted by EpicDude86 View Post
    In iraq, most of the insurgents were import models, especially later in the game.
    Source please???
    *insert profound statement here*

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    Re: Paratrooper's Mom Begs Obama: 'End It'

    Quote Originally Posted by GySgt View Post
    I am "stating" that the initial insurgency was largely made up of international players and Al-Queda managed to organize them with local fighters. Fallujah I and II? Al-Queda heavy. As the international players slowed because they recognized that they were merely going to the slaughter, Iraqi players began to emerge and take charge.

    But even our local enemies were merely Sunni tribesman that couldn't fathom that the Shia had power now. These are enemies that already existed. In fact, many were wearing Iraqi uniforms prior to our invasion. All they needed was an American to stand before them.
    Okay, please provide some source material as to how you get come to your conclusion. I've already read several sources that debunk your assertion that the insurgency was made up of "largely international players."

    By largely one can only assume you mean majority. And that is simply not true. If we are going to rest on our personal opinion that is fine, but I'll ask again for you to substantiate your claim regarding the level of foreign fighters in the insurgency. A citation or source would help me out greatly in debating you on this topic. I'll not bother with mine until I see that you are ready to compare notes. If we are content with our own ideas sans substantiation I can live with that too.
    Last edited by Lerxst; 11-15-09 at 09:19 PM.
    *insert profound statement here*

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    Re: Paratrooper's Mom Begs Obama: 'End It'

    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
    Source please???
    I meant earlier in the game. :S I retyped the first part and didn't edit the last part.


    Initially it was internal, Iraqi fighters, and then a large amount of what was classified as "foreign fighters" came in and, from my understanding these "foreign fighters" then started to bolster the resistance in the Al Anbar province, behind the Sunnis, and then Iranians started to show, though they weren't really considered "foreign fighters", then as things dragged on we began to eradicate the "Foreign Fighter" flow, and that's when we saw natural born Iraqis start to increase in the ranks of insurgents.

    Now this is paraphrasing a conversation I had with Lt. Col. Brown, Ret. USMC.

    Credentials: 23 years in the USMC, Multiple deployments to Iraq, Afghanistan, and now works D.O.D.

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    Re: Paratrooper's Mom Begs Obama: 'End It'

    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
    You're one to be talking. I see you're still avoiding the completely trashing of your argument I conducted earlier. Instead of blabbing general insults like some kind of keyboard robot, why don't you simply engage your brain in some intelligent debate.

    I've left you with several reasonable and relevant counters to your argument. How about you try and actually address those with actual reasonable and relevant responses of substance.

    Not "Libbos are dumb...yuck yuck yuck."
    I am one to be talking. You're the one who childishly cries for docs on information that is basic common knowledge.
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    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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