• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Thousands cheer 20 years since fall of Berlin Wall

Councilman

Councilman

DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 25, 2009
Messages
4,454
Reaction score
1,657
Location
Riverside, County, CA.
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
Thousands cheer 20 years since fall of Berlin Wall - Yahoo! News

By MELISSA EDDY and KIRSTEN GRIESHABER, Associated Press Writers Melissa Eddy And Kirsten Grieshaber, Associated Press Writers – Mon Nov 9, 6:20 pm ET
BERLIN – Ulrich Sauff and his wife stared at the mammoth domino pieces marking the path where the Berlin Wall once stood and reminisced about life in the barrier's shadow.

"It was like a prison," said Mr. Sauff, 73, who lived on the Western side of the wall. "For us 'Wessis,' the few kilometers from our old home to our new home (in the East) was unthinkable."

The Sauffs were among those who gathered Monday to celebrate 20 years of unity, marking the day the wall came down. Thousands cheered as 1,000 colorfully decorated dominoes along a mile-long route were toppled to symbolize both the moment the wall came crashing down and the resulting fall of communist countries in Eastern Europe.

It was the finale to a day of memorial services, speeches and events that attracted leaders from around the world, including former Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev.

Merkel and 78-year-old Gorbachev stood shoulder to shoulder as they crossed a former fortified border crossing point between East and West Berlin to cheers of "Gorby! Gorby!" bring this up to the first reference to gorby.
Click to expand...

Hard to believe it was twenty years ago. But there are two things harder to believe for me.
1. Is that as Gorbachev was hailed for his role as he should be, but unless you are old enough to remember on you own you wouldn't know of the role Ronald Reagan played in pushing Gorbachev and driving the Soviet Union into economic collapse which made it possible for the Wall to come down.
2. I between Hillary Clinton saying "I have the pleasure to introduce a man who tore down different kinds of walls. Including walls of racial intolerance." MM MMM MM Barack Husein Obama. Followed by a cheesy video attempt to make it about Obama, with no credit given to Reagan.

This only adds to my disdain for Obama and Both Clintons.
 
Reagan's economic policy had zero effect on the Wall coming down. I was born in 1992, 3 years after reunification, but that doesn't mean I'm somehow not qualified to make a judgement on this. I've studied enough history to know that the Wall's collapse was not economically motivated. The credit rests with Gorbachev for encouraging a more self-determining outlook in the east as well as the Wall's border guards for refusing to fire on ordinary civilians, against the orders of GDR commanders iirc.
 
Yossarian said:
Reagan's economic policy had zero effect on the Wall coming down. I was born in 1992, 3 years after reunification, but that doesn't mean I'm somehow not qualified to make a judgement on this. I've studied enough history to know that the Wall's collapse was not economically motivated. The credit rests with Gorbachev for encouraging a more self-determining outlook in the east as well as the Wall's border guards for refusing to fire on ordinary civilians, against the orders of GDR commanders iirc.
Click to expand...

"Zero effect". Oh boy.

You learned your lessons well, but they are wrong. It's amazing, but this is the standard level of ignorance among Europeans. Having worked in the East Bloc for years post Commie, I was always amazed at the level of ignorance both younger and older generations possessed about their evil past and how they were freed. Western Europeans are equally ignorant.

1. Gorby was a staunch Communist.

2. The party did not elect Gorby after Andropov and Chernyenko to finish off Communism.

3. Perestroika and Glasnost were means to save Communism.

4. It was Reagan, Thatcher, Kohl & co., but principally the first two responsible for demise of the USSR. They escalated an arms race the Commies knew they couldn't win. Star Wars scared the Commi leadership. If I recall correctly, 30% of GDP was spent on arms in the USSR... and technology was moving fast; the Commies couldn't steal fast enough, and didn't have the means to produce the technologies a free market creates. Hence, the road to collapse.

5. People like Ted Kennedy were actually assisting the Commies with love letters from the west.

Reagan brought Gorby to the precipice and let him take the final step.

For years the press and leftists in America and throughout were saying Communism was here to stay. Only Reagan had the vision and guts to see otherwise and plan for their defeat, and speak openly about it.

Go back and read the newspapers of the day, watch news reels... the left vilified Reagan for his views. He was labeled a Cowboy (like Bush) and warmonger (like Bush) and stupid (like Bush). They were wrong. So awfully wrong.

The idiots on the left protested Reagan in precisely the same manner they did against George W Bush.

Now there. You learned more truth in 30 seconds than years from your history teachers and books.

Live it, love it, learn it.

This is what leadership looks like... unlike the fool we have today. The Commies would have loved Obama.
He is their kind of sheep.

He starts ripping at 3:50

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCu7-Ka_zbY"]YouTube- British Parliament: President Reagan's Address to Members of the British Parliament - 6/8/82[/ame]

.
 
Last edited:
Councilman said:
nless you are old enough to remember on you own you wouldn't know of the role Ronald Reagan played in pushing Gorbachev and driving the Soviet Union into economic collapse which made it possible for the Wall to come down.
Click to expand...


I'd say that it would be next to none. Apart from the fact that the Soviet Union was dissolved against the will of the majority of its citizens and did not "collapse," this occurred several years after the end of Ronald Reagan's disastrous tenure. :shrug:
 
zimmer said:
1. Gorby was a staunch Communist.
Click to expand...

Yes.

zimmer said:
2. The party did not elect Gorby after Andropov and Chernyenko to finish off Communism.
Click to expand...

Yes.

zimmer said:
3. Perestroika and Glasnost were means to save Communism.
Click to expand...

Obviously. While you clearly consider your statements to be some revelation, they are depressingly banal. What in the world do you think I have been learning? The Short Course?

zimmer said:
4. It was Reagan, Thatcher, Kohl & co., but principally the first two responsible for demise of the USSR. They escalated an arms race the Commies knew the couldn't win. Star Wars scared the Commi leadership.
Click to expand...

Partially.

But the point is, did you comprehend more than the first sentence of my post? It is about the Berlin Wall, not the fall of the USSR. The two events are in no way synonymous. Reagan's economic policy did have an effect on the collapse of the USSR, perhaps an unjust effect, but okay. They had no effect, none whatsoever, on the internal decisions within the Communist bloc that led to the fall of the Berlin Wall.

zimmer said:
Reagan brought Gorby to the precipice and let him take the final step.
Click to expand...

Stop putting the man on a pedestal he does not deserve.
 
Last edited:
But the point is, did you comprehend more than the first sentence of my post? It is about the Berlin Wall, not the fall of the USSR. The two events are in no way synonymous. Reagan's economic policy did have an effect on the collapse of the USSR, perhaps an unjust effect, but okay. They had no effect, none whatsoever, on the internal decisions within the Communist bloc that led to the fall of the Berlin Wall.
Click to expand...
LOL... that is absurd. Absolutely, 100% absurd.

As is this.

Stop putting the man on a pedestal he does not deserve.
Click to expand...

I know you Europeans resent Reagan. It's difficult to be so badly wrong over, and over, and over.
 
Last edited:
Provide at least SOME justification for your refutation.

I am not a goddamn European. I'm from Australia. Australia. Can't you read? <-------

I do not resent Reagan as much as you appear to unjustifiably worship him.
 
Last edited:
zimmer said:
I know you Europeans resent Reagan. It's difficult to be so badly wrong over, and over, and over.
Click to expand...

He's not European, though I'm starting to wish that the U.S. had lost the Revolutionary War after reading your posts. Aren't you going to at least pretend that you have a rebuttal on hand? :rofl
 
Yossarian said:
Provide at least SOME justification for your refutation.

I am not a goddamn European. I'm from Australia. Australia. Can't you read? <-------

I do not resent Reagan as much as you appear to unjustifiably worship him.
Click to expand...

You have to forgive Zimmer, he lives in a parallel universe.
 
Yossarian said:
Provide at least SOME justification for your refutation.

I am not a goddamn European. I'm from Australia. Australia. Can't you read? <-------

I do not resent Reagan as much as you appear to unjustifiably worship him.
Click to expand...

I don't look at the tidbits under people's names, just as you haven't looked at the realities of the past.

You sound like a typical leftist, ignorant European. Shame the schools in Australia are feeding crap to their citizens, but hell, America isn't any better today.

I don't idolize anyone, but appreciate clear, honest, forthright, principled leadership. Reagan had this in bushels.

.
 
PHP:
zimmer said:
I don't look at the tidbits under people's names, just as you haven't looked at the realities of the past.
Click to expand...

Do not accuse me of ignorance before you yourself can provide a reasonable rebuttal that isn't grounded in some pathetic ad hominem.

zimmer said:
You sound like a typical leftist, ignorant European. Shame the schools in Australia are feeding crap to their citizens, but hell, America isn't any better today.
Click to expand...

Well if you want to get partisan, you sound like a typical rightist hack. How unsurprising, then, that your posts are utterly devoid of any semblance of intelligence or meaning. You have no idea about the education system of Australia, which is regarded as one of the best in the world, although that obviously makes no difference to the single-minded, bigoted claptrap you call 'ideology'.

zimmer said:
I don't idolize anyone, but appreciate clear, honest, forthright, principled leadership. Reagan had this in bushels.
Click to expand...

Are you kidding? Ever heard of Iran-Contra?

Wake up to yourself, mate.
 
Yossarian said:
PHP:
Well if you want to get partisan, you sound like a typical rightist hack. How unsurprising, then, that your posts are utterly devoid of any semblance of intelligence or meaning. You have no idea about the education system of Australia, which is regarded as one of the best in the world, although that obviously makes no difference to the single-minded, bigoted claptrap you call 'ideology'.
Click to expand...

I was a good little socialist at one time Comrade. So I've been on both sides of the fence. The worst thing for chumps like you is to have someone actually converted. I know you and your type. I admit it, I was a leftist moron once. What's your excuse?
.
If my posts are utterly devoid of intelligence... why did you agree with everything except Reagan's role earlier... LOL. Is your memory that short... :rofl

How do you know I know nothing about the Aussie school system. Again, making claims without having the facts. You, a representative product of the Aussie school system; it's hurt'in. Seems the teachers are hav'in a fair dink'um oliday mate.

Good on'ya mate.

Back to your theory that there is no cause and effect.

.:2wave::2wave:
 
Last edited:
Agnapostate said:
He's not European, though I'm starting to wish that the U.S. had lost the Revolutionary War after reading your posts. Aren't you going to at least pretend that you have a rebuttal on hand? :rofl
Click to expand...

How do you know I'm not?
People assume I'm an American and that's OK with me.

I grew up in Europe, have spent the better part of my adult life there, as well as Kanuckistan.

Though the US is "home", I just don't get to see her too often.

.
 
zimmer said:
If my posts are utterly devoid of intelligence... why did you agree with everything except Reagan's role earlier... LOL. Is your memory that short... :rofl
Click to expand...

There is a difference between spouting dull and trite factual information on one hand, and displaying the cognitive capacity to engage with them, which is what you have totally failed to do.

Nevertheless, I will respond to these blatant threadjacks no longer.
 
Last edited:
Yossarian said:
Reagan's economic policy had zero effect on the Wall coming down. I was born in 1992, 3 years after reunification, but that doesn't mean I'm somehow not qualified to make a judgement on this. I've studied enough history to know that the Wall's collapse was not economically motivated. The credit rests with Gorbachev for encouraging a more self-determining outlook in the east as well as the Wall's border guards for refusing to fire on ordinary civilians, against the orders of GDR commanders iirc.
Click to expand...

The year of your birth is a clue to your error in your interpretation of what I wrote and it's meaning.
I wrote
Is that as Gorbachev was hailed for his role as he should be, but unless you are old enough to remember on you own you wouldn't know of the role Ronald Reagan played in pushing Gorbachev and driving the Soviet Union into economic collapse which made it possible for the Wall to come down.
Click to expand...
This economic collapse was in the Soviet Union. Reagan pushed for systems and the Soviets were trying to keep up with or counter Reagans proposals like the Stategic Defense Initiative better known to many as Star Wars. This was part of what bought down the Soviets and his dealings with Gorbachev helped.

A look into the economic miss left by Carter made will show you President Reagan proposed sweeping tax rate reductions during the 1980s. What happened? Total tax revenues climbed by 99.4 percent during the 1980s, and the results are even more impressive when looking at what happened to personal income tax revenues. Once the economy received an unambiguous tax cut in January 1983, income tax revenues climbed dramatically, increasing by more than 54 percent by 1989 (28 percent after adjusting for inflation).
If you look into it you will find that JFK also cut taxes because he knew it would help the economy. Which it did for Reagan and the last good Dempcrat president JFK.
 
Councilman said:
This economic collapse was in the Soviet Union. Reagan pushed for systems and the Soviets were trying to keep up with or counter Reagans proposals like the Stategic Defense Initiative better known to many as Star Wars. This was part of what bought down the Soviets and his dealings with Gorbachev helped.
Click to expand...

You are pushing a relationship between two events that simply does not exist. Reagan's economic policy did have an effect on the fall of the USSR, but not on the fall of the Berlin Wall, which I believe was the original focus of this thread. Reagan can take no credit for the fall of the Wall whatsoever.

Councilman said:
Once the economy received an unambiguous tax cut in January 1983, income tax revenues climbed dramatically, increasing by more than 54 percent by 1989 (28 percent after adjusting for inflation).
Click to expand...

Correlation =/= causality.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom