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House majority votes in favor Health Care Bill

Because healthcare is a neccessity and a right that is more often than not unaffordable.

Okay, then create public health care for the poor. Oh wait, we already have that. It's called Medicaid.

Food, clothes, and shelter are necessities too. Nobody is suggesting that we socialize those though.

Again: why should the health care industry be socialized if other industries shouldn't be socialized?
 
Which is why some people have the option to go private. I have never heard of such extreme cases whereby somebody has to wait up to 7 to 8 years for treatment, i have heard about 2 years at most, an extreme scenario, and she was not living in constant agony either. Where did you here that?

Here's a few cursory links:

3 year wait for Jaw implant

6 year wait for a knee

Children wait up to 7 years for dental surgery

Dunno, but even 3 years is an insane amount of time to wait - 6 and 7 years - I wouldn't be able to take it.


That is how it works in all of the countries i have been to with a UHC. You need to remember it isnt one big hospital. Its many hospitals belonging to the UHC in your local area/state. If you are in extreme pain they will prioritize and move you to the top of the list, if the affordable medication they provide you in the mean time does not suffice to ease your pain. Unless your federal government intends to kill of its citizens and get itself sued left and right, believe me, they wont have any other choice but to prioritize.
Who makes the prioritization decision on who goes ahead of whom at these UHC hospitals? Going back to my example, if you're in extreme pain and they re-prioritize, does that mean 5 years goes down to 2 years?


The NHS kills? Do you have a link?

Sentenced to death on the NHS - Telegraph

This one is not as blatant but shows there are serious issues with the NHS system.

Deaths from hospital blunders soar 60% in two years as NHS staff 'abandon quality of care to chase targets' | Mail Online


The last thing I would want it this type of care in the U.S. Right now, I can get elective surgery as soon as my doctor thinks I am ready - that may be a week or that may be 3 months. I can get blood work, CAT, MRI and any other type of scans at any time - 7 days a week and I have gotten them the very next day after a Dr.'s visit. No waiting... walk in, I'm done in 45 minutes.

Now I'll have to schedule this to occur in "months" and then results may show I have "years" to wait for a procedure, and then I may not be viewed as "in enough pain" by a bureaucrat, so I'll need to suffer until they're ready... and now that my work may be affected, I may not have enough money to change to a private insurance company who can take me now. Gee, this sounds great... :roll:
 
I said torte! :D:D:D

Where I come from torte is cake. But then again, this type of torte will most likely be banned as being too fatty and high in calories to stay legal in the future.
 
Despite the best efforts of the "Party of No minus one"....The American people are going to get real healthcare reform. The Party of No did their best to represent the interests of their Insurance Company CEO buddies...but in the end the American people are going to end up victorious in this battle.
 
15% of dems---IN THE HOUSE (LOL!)---comprise a pretty sizeable coalition of no all by themselves

lieberman on fns was asked 4 question by chris wallace (son of 60 minutes' mike) about fort hood

jiltin joe's responses were very interesting, and they have been covered already by the msm

this most israel-loyal voice in washington spoke today the toughest words so far concerning hasan and his relationship with the US army

but even more revealing was wallace's last question about health care and the former dem veep nominee's answer:

wallace---will you join a republican filibuster if a PO and taxes on cadillac benefits are included in the bill?

jiltin joe---there's some good things in the house bill and i believe we need to reform health care; there are two major problems---the unsustainability of the current system and millions of americans left uncovered; but i'm afraid my colleagues in the house added a lot of things to the bill that subract from the genuine purposes of health care, put forward by people who i really believe want a govt takeover of medicine; but there's a bigger problem facing us even than medical costs, and that's debt, 12 trillion now, 21 trillion in 10 years; "if the public option plan is in there i will, as a matter of conscience, not allow this bill to come to a final vote"
 
still not finger pressed down on a single keystroke in defense of even one of the following

no surprise, they're indefensible

the bill has no chance in lieberman's lobby

and the dems are permanently saddled with all of the below

congrats, nancy

1. half a T cuts to m and m

2. mandates on individuals to buy that which they can't afford, fines if they don't, jail at the end

3. unfunded mandates on already bankrupt states, talk to difi and harry

4. dem governors ritter, gregoire, schweitzer and bill richardson have joined TN's phil bredesen as violent, vehement, vocal objectors to this forcing the states to underwrite hundreds of B's of obama's fantasies

5. ten years of taxes vs 6 or 7 years of bennies

6. the doc fixes

7. 1.4T, including the "fix"

8. how it's paid for---massive taxes, penalties, fines, mandates

9. the dire differences between house and senate creations

10. taxes on small biz and big biz, jobs killer

11. the fact that the cuts to m and m, huge part of how obama "pays for" crap, will never occur, destroying the deficit

12. taxes on the rich---dead letter in the senate

13. taxes on benefits---anathema to unions

14. taxes on insurers, manufacturers, pharmaceuticals

15. the incentive for employers to dump coverage

16. the crafting of all this in secret, dumped on membership and the public always at the last second
 
I'm not going to defend any of the points because I think government run health care is a bad idea but I am curious on the below points.

2. mandates on individuals to buy that which they can't afford, fines if they don't, jail at the end

15. the incentive for employers to dump coverage

What is the cost to each person? You previously said it was $1,000 per month but weren't able to back that up. Any ideas what this un affordable cost is going to be?

Also, as an employer what is the incentive for me to dump my current coverage? Currently I make my choice of coverage based on balancing cost and appeal to my current and future employee's. Is the government run health care going to be cheaper for my employee's and a better service?
 
I'm not going to defend any of the points because I think government run health care is a bad idea but I am curious on the below points.



What is the cost to each person? You previously said it was $1,000 per month but weren't able to back that up. Any ideas what this un affordable cost is going to be?

Also, as an employer what is the incentive for me to dump my current coverage? Currently I make my choice of coverage based on balancing cost and appeal to my current and future employee's. Is the government run health care going to be cheaper for my employee's and a better service?

1. the cost is whatever the price is for a family to insure itself

2. the fine is cheaper than insuring a worker (read the link)
 
1. the cost is whatever the price is for a family to insure itself

Which varies depending on the family and insurance carrier you choose. I insure my entire family for under $500 per month, that is through my company though. When I was a consultant I insured my family for about $750 (PPO still).

If the government plans are to be competitive with and more affordable then private plans then my guess is they need to be under $150 per person a month.

2. the fine is cheaper than insuring a worker (read the link)
That's not incentive. It's currently cheaper for me to offer no insurance to my employee's and tell them to get their own, that doesn't mean I'm going to do it. For employers to stay competitive in the hiring market they have to appeal to job seekers by offering an attractive benefits package. The job market is going to drive what types of insurance plans companies offer.
 
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Okay, then create public health care for the poor. Oh wait, we already have that. It's called Medicaid.

Do only the poor have rights to afforadable healthcare?

Food, clothes, and shelter are necessities too. Nobody is suggesting that we socialize those though.

Its called state-run hostels and unemployement benefits which pretty much provide this indirectly anyway.

Again: why should the health care industry be socialized if other industries shouldn't be socialized?

Because we have already created social programmes to support people to obtain goods from the industries that provide these neccessities. We havent directly socialized it. I think your against socialization of healthcare just for the sake of it not being "capitalist" per se.
 
Which varies depending on the family and insurance carrier you choose. I insure my entire family for under $500 per month, that is through my company though. When I was a consultant I insured my family for about $750 (PPO still).

well, there ya go

That's not incentive. It's currently cheaper for me to offer no insurance to my employee's and tell them to get their own, that doesn't mean I'm going to do it. For employers to stay competitive in the hiring market they have to appeal to job seekers by offering an attractive benefits package. The job market is going to drive what types of insurance plans companies offer.

tell it to the milwaukee business journal

and 100 others

these days, it's not real hard for "employers to stay competitive in the hiring market"

all they gotta do is whisper in the morning to a neighbor they're hiring

they get flooded with ap's by lunch

times are changing
 

NHS Cornwall moved her to a private hospital and funded the expenses.


That was written in November 2001, its staff has since been expanded.


Orthodontists say that in many parts of England, the NHS has effectively ceased to provide corrective dental surgery for children.

That was because in those parts of England, the private sector, which was forced to compete with the national health service, offered better prices and smaller waiting lists, which led to large privatization of healthcare in that area and with it a lack of Orthodontists for the national healthcare service. Says so in the article.

Another reason why national health care is good: it forces competition amongst private sector healthcare units. Also, as those citizens pay their national health tax, they are obliged to be transferred to a private ward and their expenses funded by the UHC. All you need to do is contact your local member of parliament or ask your doctor for a referral.

Who makes the prioritization decision on who goes ahead of whom at these UHC hospitals? Going back to my example, if you're in extreme pain and they re-prioritize, does that mean 5 years goes down to 2 years?

There are, i believe, about 2 lists. The first list is the normal waiting list - depending on what you want, you could wait up to anything within 18 months of seeing you GP. Then there is the special list for people in agony but are able to eliminate the pain with morphine tablets and other medication the UHC provides - and then for those who need life saving surgery should recieve it almost immediately or be transferred to the private sector and funded by the national government, paticularly if your finances are not enough to pay off the debts.

Now I'll have to schedule this to occur in "months" and then results may show I have "years" to wait for a procedure, and then I may not be viewed as "in enough pain" by a bureaucrat, so I'll need to suffer until they're ready... and now that my work may be affected, I may not have enough money to change to a private insurance company who can take me now. Gee, this sounds great... :roll:

Then you have the option to switching to private healthcare which is always their for those, such as yourself, fortunate enough to obtain such services. If you can prove you are financially unable to do this, however, the UHC will fund it, and will do so anyway if they transfer you themselves. Remember the difference between transferral and referral.

The NHS is paticularly useful for those who have medical conditions and require expensive medication. These sorts of services that do not rely on Doctors under huge pressure from the system are offered immediately, more often than not.

There is no doubt that National Health Care almost always results in huge amounts of demand from the system. This type of thing is inevitable; but it doesnt render UHC bad. Because, you will recieve the medication eventually and you do have the option to change to private or recieve UHC funding. All you can hope for is that Obama legislates it so that it is properly staffed and financed; otherwise, there should be no problem. Here in the UK, i believe there is quiet a staff shortage, but we have far less employement potential compared to the 300 million large America.
 
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My signature shows the true nature of the EU for what it is. Why that would make me any less European or any less credible in the face of national health care is beyond me?
How the hell does support for UHC and its obvious successes in Canada and Europe make me a euroapologist?
Your hypocritical about the UHC. You sit there supporting that crap, but tell us you got surgery in 4 months at the same time you have a Heil Hitler logo. Which is it with you? So a Nazi-like regime has the best healthcare, but you have to wait 4 months? People with deadly diseases have to wait 6 months to get on the Obamacare govt program. They could be dead by then. Dude, you're sending all kind of mixed signals.
 
Your hypocritical about the UHC. You sit there supporting that crap, but tell us you got surgery in 4 months at the same time you have a Heil Hitler logo. Which is it with you? So a Nazi-like regime has the best healthcare, but you have to wait 4 months?

omg, the NHS is NATIONAL BRITISH healthcare, it has nothing to do with Europe. :doh

Whats 4 months when its affordable and secures my rights to healthcare along with my countrymen without having to worry about endless life comprimising debts??

In the US, whether you pull through with the surgery or not, it doesnt matter, either way you wont have a life by the end of it.

People with deadly diseases have to wait 6 months to get on the Obamacare govt program. They could be dead by then. Dude, you're sending all kind of mixed signals.

No im not. Where?

My message is simple. If you have a deadly disease and will not survive long enough to be on the waiting list, you will get transferred by the UHS and your expenses funded.

And even if that wasnt the case. The people with "deadly diseases" still have the option to go private, so how does the UHC in anyway harm said person? Its not STOPPING them going private. At the end of the day, its the indivisuals choice to make a responsible decision based on current circumstances. Dont make out its the end of the world. Your also told an approxiate date of OP anyway.

Plus, if that person goes to the UHC in the first place chances are they are financially unable to go to the private sector anyway. So if the UHC didnt exist, what do you have? A dead person who couldnt go hospital because he couldnt afford it. Either way you have the same result only with the UHC they will fund your expenses or prioritize your surgery. Which is better?
 
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NHS Cornwall moved her to a private hospital and funded the expenses.
After how long of a wait?


That was written in November 2001, its staff has since been expanded.
So the moral of the story is, people will suffer for years until things are fixed. Here's to hoping we're not one of the unlucky. Not acceptable.


Orthodontists say that in many parts of England, the NHS has effectively ceased to provide corrective dental surgery for children.

That was because in those parts of England, the private sector, which was forced to compete with the national health service, offered better prices and smaller waiting lists, which led to large privatization of healthcare in that area and with it a lack of Orthodontists for the national healthcare service. Says so in the article.
Ah, so it's all because of competition and the high rate of acceptance of the NHS. :roll:

Waiting 7 years is never acceptable.


Another reason why national health care is good: it forces competition amongst private sector healthcare units.
It also forces competition out - meaning there are less doctors and less private places to go to, meaning that demand increases while supply dwindles and government artificially deflates prices, running private hospitals and insurance out. Not a good motivation for attracting talented medical workers and surgeons.


Also, as those citizens pay their national health tax, they are obliged to be transferred to a private ward and their expenses funded by the UHC. All you need to do is contact your local member of parliament or ask your doctor for a referral.
FORCED to pay the health tax you mean --- and I find it insane to call my government to get a medical referral. Do I also call my plumber to procure a referral to a good bank? This might work in down-trodden and government soaked Europe but there will be riots if this is how it works in the U.S.


There are, i believe, about 2 lists. The first list is the normal waiting list - depending on what you want, you could wait up to anything within 18 months of seeing you GP.
Whew... let's hope it's not cancer then eh? Or heart disease... or mini strokes... maybe this is one of those secondary benefits under the moniker of "population control". I can get a GP today, within a few hours... why the hell would anyone want to wait 18 months? What ****ing planet are people living on that they accept this?


Then there is the special list for people in agony but are able to eliminate the pain with morphine tablets and other medication the UHC provides
Well thank God for the steady stream of morphine... a few years on morphine is much better than getting the problem taken care of within a month don't you think?


and then for those who need life saving surgery should recieve it almost immediately or be transferred to the private sector and funded by the national government, paticularly if your finances are not enough to pay off the debts.
Again, who makes this determination of "who needs life saving surgery"? And it sounds like - if the UHC cannot handle it, the financial burden goes back on the individual anyway which is what the U.S. has now.. so what the hell am I benefiting again? Let's recap:

- 18 month waits on GP visits
- 2 priority lists, possibly three with bureaucrats making decisions about your health
- Free morphine tablets
- If you really need attention now, a transfer to the private sector where you have to pay out of pocket anyway

Holy ****...


Then you have the option to switching to private healthcare which is always their for those, such as yourself, fortunate enough to obtain such services. If you can prove you are financially unable to do this, however, the UHC will fund it, and will do so anyway if they transfer you themselves. Remember the difference between transferral and referral.
We have this now with no waits, immediate diagnostics, and quick procedures with no addictive morphine tablets or years of waiting. If the UHC funds it - the individual must wait on the previous lists and we're back to square one. A bullet in the head sounds preferable - which is the last option I assume though in England, guns are hard to come by and now I know why.



The NHS is paticularly useful for those who have medical conditions and require expensive medication. These sorts of services that do not rely on Doctors under huge pressure from the system are offered immediately, more often than not.
Good for drugs, bad for procedures and hope you don't have an aggressive cancer or you'll have to convince Parliament that one is very sick. We all have to become very good sales people apparently to sell our illness to get treatment in a timely manner.


There is no doubt that National Health Care almost always results in huge amounts of demand from the system. This type of thing is inevitable; but it doesnt render UHC bad. Because, you will recieve the medication eventually
Unless you die first, in which case it's not the fault of NHS because there's just too much demand... :roll:


and you do have the option to change to private or recieve UHC funding. All you can hope for is that Obama legislates it so that it is properly staffed and financed; otherwise, there should be no problem. Here in the UK, i believe there is quiet a staff shortage, but we have far less employement potential compared to the 300 million large America.

Sounds like a ****ing nightmare... The only comfort is the liberals will hopefully suffer just as much as everyone else. There's a little space in hell hopefully for all those wanting to throw away a perfectly good system that needs only to be fixed in certain areas - which treat people immediately, provide diagnostics immediately. If we thought dealing with Insurance company's was bad ... just wait until we have to deal with the government and we get the news: "Oh I'm sorry sir/madam, we have you scheduled for 2013, January 9th for your tumor removal. Until then, here! Have some complimentary morphine pills!"

Makes me want to vomit.

I also noticed you didn't address the last link I provided showing how the NHS is causing deaths... how come?
 
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After how long of a wait?

No wait. If your local UHC says you will wait longer than a year, and are experiencing extreme pain, you can get transferred and expenses funded ASAP.


Ah, so it's all because of competition and the high rate of acceptance of the NHS. :roll:

Waiting 7 years is never acceptable.

Refer above, nobody waited 7 years.

It also forces competition out - meaning there are less doctors and less private places to go to, meaning that demand increases while supply dwindles and government artificially deflates prices, running private hospitals and insurance out. Not a good motivation for attracting talented medical workers and surgeons.

Can you list a country as an example? Britain is experiencing strong consistent growth in private healthcare.

FORCED to pay the health tax you mean --- and I find it insane to call my government to get a medical referral. Do I also call my plumber to procure a referral to a good bank? This might work in down-trodden and government soaked Europe but there will be riots if this is how it works in the U.S.

Yes, like your FORCED to pay any other tax which funds something you benefit from. Welcome to the modern world.
Here, you dont call a government referral, you call a GP.

Whew... let's hope it's not cancer then eh? Or heart disease... or mini strokes... maybe this is one of those secondary benefits under the moniker of "population control". I can get a GP today, within a few hours... why the hell would anyone want to wait 18 months? What ****ing planet are people living on that they accept this?

It doesnt take that long to get a GP, it takes that long to get the surgery. You can get a diagnosis within days. You have to remember that not everybody can afford such medical treatment that the private sector offers, hence the 10's of millions of Americans without healthcare. Those who cannot afford such expensive surgery will have to wait at most a year or so depending on what the surgery is, but they recieve the treatment and walk away with their lives.


Well thank God for the steady stream of morphine... a few years on morphine is much better than getting the problem taken care of within a month don't you think?

How about if you dont have that option? Dont just think about yourself.

Again, who makes this determination of "who needs life saving surgery"? And it sounds like - if the UHC cannot handle it, the financial burden goes back on the individual anyway which is what the U.S. has now.. so what the hell am I benefiting again? Let's recap:

Your GP. :)

No point in answering the other questions, just going in circles.
 
Re: House approves landmark healthcare reform bill

Goodness, 220-215. A squeaker of that level is rare. That means that only an once less of support in the Senate will kill the bill. At least I can hope.
Looks like they weren't able to strongarm all the Blue Dogs.
 
Which varies depending on the family and insurance carrier you choose. I insure my entire family for under $500 per month, that is through my company though. When I was a consultant I insured my family for about $750 (PPO still).

If the government plans are to be competitive with and more affordable then private plans then my guess is they need to be under $150 per person a month.


That's not incentive. It's currently cheaper for me to offer no insurance to my employee's and tell them to get their own, that doesn't mean I'm going to do it. For employers to stay competitive in the hiring market they have to appeal to job seekers by offering an attractive benefits package. The job market is going to drive what types of insurance plans companies offer.

The Wall Street Journal has some "highlights" of the bill. Following is their take on costs:

On Nov. 2, the Congressional Budget Office estimated what the plans will likely cost. An individual earning $44,000 before taxes who purchases his own insurance will have to pay a $5,300 premium and an estimated $2,000 in out-of-pocket expenses, for a total of $7,300 a year, which is 17% of his pre-tax income. A family earning $102,100 a year before taxes will have to pay a $15,000 premium plus an estimated $5,300 out-of-pocket, for a $20,300 total, or 20% of its pre-tax income. Individuals and families earning less than these amounts will be eligible for subsidies paid directly to their insurer.
Betsy McCaughey: What the Pelosi Health Care Bill Really Says - WSJ.com

It's going to be interesting when people find out how much this debacle is going to cost them.
 
This is basically Nancy Pelosi saying to Harry Reid, "Nanny, nanny, boo, boo, you can't blame it on me!"

Had to pass this on a Saturday night when no one was watching, eh Nancy? LOL. Come on, grow some balls. LOL

All this did was ensure utter outrage in 2010 against a host of Democrats in the House. The Republicans are licking their chops over this.

Pelosi is without a doubt the dumbest, most inarticulate speaker we've ever had. She looks like a used-up bimbo in front of that microphone. It's patently clear that she has no idea what the bill is about, not a clue about what repercussions it would have or the financial impact of it. She might as well be playing Barbies with her friends.
 
No wait. If your local UHC says you will wait longer than a year, and are experiencing extreme pain, you can get transferred and expenses funded ASAP.
So which is it... no wait or nothing longer than a year?

Can you list a country as an example? Britain is experiencing strong consistent growth in private healthcare.
You'll need to provide evidence of such an assertion. Can you prove there's been growth in private healthcare systems between the start of NHS and today?

Yes, like your FORCED to pay any other tax which funds something you benefit from. Welcome to the modern world.
Here, you dont call a government referral, you call a GP.
I use the word "FORCED" because our Constitution does not include any referral of "healthcare for all". Whether or not benefits are derived are irrelevant and if that's the "modern world", I'll pass - but unfortunately if I DO pass, the current bill passed our House says I'll be fined and/or jailed. Sounds like a totalitarian position to me.

Does the GP make the determination on their own, how people are prioritized or do they utilize government guidelines provided to the GP on how to prioritize patients? My point here that you're obviously hesitant to address, is that ultimately the government guidelines are the backbone of the decision.


It doesnt take that long to get a GP, it takes that long to get the surgery. You can get a diagnosis within days. You have to remember that not everybody can afford such medical treatment that the private sector offers, hence the 10's of millions of Americans without healthcare.
You stated if one cannot afford it, the UHC pays... so which is it? I get immediate diagnoses of a disease but can't get surgery for 18 months? But then if I cannot afford it the UHC pays... Second, you forget that 290 million people DO have healthcare and frankly don't want it changed.

Those who cannot afford such expensive surgery will have to wait at most a year or so depending on what the surgery is, but they recieve the treatment and walk away with their lives.
So I'm confused... is it only those who cannot afford have to wait for surgery or is it everyone who gets prioritized?


How about if you dont have that option? Dont just think about yourself.
That doesn't make sense... if I don't have the option don't think about myself. Who's health is more important to me, my own or someone else's? I vote my own.

No point in answering the other questions, just going in circles.

No point in addressing the hard questions. Bottom line is this is a leap backwards to ruin a good system in the U.S., for two reasons:

- One a political reason to give Democrats a "win" on a 30 year wish list to take over a large portion of capitalism.

- Two, a "common good" reason to address a vast minority of people who do not have or wish to not have insurance and MAKE them get it, under penalty of jail, while ignoring that 290 million people are currently covered and a majority of those do not want to change...


All bad reasons and we'll all suffer for it's passage. No wonder the extremists see Obama and his ilk as socialists... they may have a point.
 
Re: House approves landmark healthcare reform bill

Looks like they weren't able to strongarm all the Blue Dogs.

They didn't need to. 54% of the Blue Dogs voted for the bill in the House. That's 24 of the 52.
 
Re: House approves landmark healthcare reform bill

Robbinig Peter to pay Paul. You'd think enough people would have enough character not to allow such a thing in America.

Unfortunately, there are enough "Pauls" out there that don't effort to carry their own weight and will always vote for the government to give them other people's stuff.

Character is in short supply anymore. That's why socialism will always be lurking.
 
tell it to the milwaukee business journal

and 100 others

these days, it's not real hard for "employers to stay competitive in the hiring market"

all they gotta do is whisper in the morning to a neighbor they're hiring

they get flooded with ap's by lunch

times are changing

Not by qualified individuals though most of the time. I was hiring for a marketing coordinator last month and got flooded with resumes from people with all varying backgrounds but only three had any experience or even interest in marketing. They were all just looking for a pay check until a job they really wanted came available.

Unemployment is up but for specific types of jobs. Factory workers and mid-high level managers is what I have seen the most of. Sadly, that's what people aren't hiring for.
 
I'm not going to defend any of the points because I think government run health care is a bad idea but I am curious on the below points.



What is the cost to each person? You previously said it was $1,000 per month but weren't able to back that up. Any ideas what this un affordable cost is going to be?

Also, as an employer what is the incentive for me to dump my current coverage? Currently I make my choice of coverage based on balancing cost and appeal to my current and future employee's. Is the government run health care going to be cheaper for my employee's and a better service?

On Nov. 2, the Congressional Budget Office estimated what the plans will likely cost. An individual earning $44,000 before taxes who purchases his own insurance will have to pay a $5,300 premium and an estimated $2,000 in out-of-pocket expenses, for a total of $7,300 a year, which is 17% of his pre-tax income. A family earning $102,100 a year before taxes will have to pay a $15,000 premium plus an estimated $5,300 out-of-pocket, for a $20,300 total, or 20% of its pre-tax income. Individuals and families earning less than these amounts will be eligible for subsidies paid directly to their insurer.

Betsy McCaughey: What the Pelosi Health Care Bill Really Says - WSJ.com

Sorry Gill.... didn't get to where you had already posted this.

People need to read this whole article.
 
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So which is it... no wait or nothing longer than a year?

If you are in extreme pain, they will transfer you to a private sector and fund those expenses.

You'll need to provide evidence of such an assertion. Can you prove there's been growth in private healthcare systems between the start of NHS and today?

I can tell you there have been no major contractions to the private health sector and that it continues to grow regardless of some accusations being thrown about here that it intends to destroy the private sector.

OHE compendium of health statistics - Google Books

I use the word "FORCED" because our Constitution does not include any referral of "healthcare for all". Whether or not benefits are derived are irrelevant and if that's the "modern world", I'll pass - but unfortunately if I DO pass, the current bill passed our House says I'll be fined and/or jailed. Sounds like a totalitarian position to me.

I see where your going with it. But there is a saying you need to bare in mind; "Democracy is the system where we get to elect our dictators".

Does the GP make the determination on their own, how people are prioritized or do they utilize government guidelines provided to the GP on how to prioritize patients? My point here that you're obviously hesitant to address, is that ultimately the government guidelines are the backbone of the decision.

What do you mean government guidlines? The condition the patient is in and if and when they should be prioritized is a personal decision made by the GP. I dont really get what you mean by guidlines though.


You stated if one cannot afford it, the UHC pays... so which is it? I get immediate diagnoses of a disease but can't get surgery for 18 months? But then if I cannot afford it the UHC pays... Second, you forget that 290 million people DO have healthcare and frankly don't want it changed.

All 290 million people?

And look, if your diagnosed under the UHC with a disease you will recieve treatment until your doctors can decide how best to approach the situation. If its a disease that requires surgerical attention, the same process applies only if it is life threatening you will be transferred to the private sector assuming there is no chance of surviving on the waiting list and if financially unable, will be funded by the UHC.

So I'm confused... is it only those who cannot afford have to wait for surgery or is it everyone who gets prioritized?

Ive explained that up there. And again, prioritization is in accordance to how serious the status quo is.


That doesn't make sense... if I don't have the option don't think about myself. Who's health is more important to me, my own or someone else's? I vote my own.


Absolutely, but tell me you can gaurentee me you will never find yourself in need of life saving and over-priced surgery that you are unable to afford (god forbid). The UHC is their to provide you with that healthcare

No point in addressing the hard questions. Bottom line is this is a leap backwards to ruin a good system in the U.S., for two reasons:

My intent isnt to sway your opinion. Im simply adding to this argument things from a first hand account - something many Americans probably including yourself, lack. I like to address your hard questions, but as ive said, im not here to start an argument, im here to share with you my personal first hand knowledge and information. So here you have it. Enjoy. :)
 
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