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House majority votes in favor Health Care Bill

as far as obamacare driving privates out of business

which, it aint gonna happen, anyway, obamacare

what part of 41 don't you understand?

lieberman and his friends have told you

the only way it can possibly pass is if lieberman is lying or changes his position

do you know lieberman?

but, as to the bill killing privates:

i don't think any of us really knows

worse, i'm not sure pelosi or obama knows

i know the media don't

but, knowing obama's aggressive, comprehensive extremism, i sure can see him trying

and what we do most certainly know (it's been talked about a lot)---

the fine on businesses who currently offer benefits (which is where most of us get our coverage) is a lot less than the cost of insuring employees

it leads anyone thinking for themselves to suspect that employers might be incentivized to drop their workers, pay the fine, give the employees some portion of what used to paid on their behalf, and let em go shopping

it DOES look that way

Health plan penalty would save money for most firms - The Business Journal of Milwaukee:

also, of course, the govt SETS prices and costs, presumably, in the PO

you've probably heard the gigantic controversy about rates paid to doctors

it's what totally underlay the doc fix bill which lost on the full senate floor, 47 to 53

'Doc Fix' Fails in Senate, 47-53 - The Note

(you see, there you go---you are fully sophisticated to READ what that means, reid's doc fix bill failing on the full floor, short of FIFTY---the reid bill has no chance upstairs)

the left wants docs paid in accord to medicare rates

in the house, they were a little more realistic, medicare plus 5 (percent)

but ruralists like kent conrad (the most vocal leader of this centrist wing) maintain such CHEAP compensation of doctors will kill service in their states

conrad has said many, many times, medicare scheduling of doctors pay will close every hospital in north dakota

others, many others, have raised the same serious, potentially (they say) bill-killing objection

the point---obamacare does look to underprice private competition
 
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as for the doc fix, it's gonna be put on the carpet in pelosi's place, as you probably know

which should (and secretly does) outrage every member of this forum, from the most wingnut to the whackiest

1/4T---OFF BUDGET---cynically sliced off obamacare, accounted against the general fund, instead, ie, the deficit

that is, this quarter tril bribe to labcoats is considered NOT part of comprehensive health care

if things weren't so serious, a roaring LOL! would be in order

it also outrages us all, i presume (cuz i know it pisses off the parliamentarians on the left side of the aisle), that all this necromancy has been conducted in the locked closet of the speaker

not debated in the open, not the products of the separate committee

but cabaled together in some quiet, exclusive company

WE are not allowed in

you've got to understand how much folks like kent conrad and bill nelson---their jobs on the line---resent the hell out of such outsider treatment, the spots they're being put in by this supremely arrogant leadership

oh well
 
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what part of 41 don't you understand?

lieberman and his friends have told you

the only way it can possibly pass is if lieberman is lying or changes his position

do you know lieberman?



Ahhh, Prof, it will pass. I've told you this. You said there weren't the votes in the House, I assured you there were. You are counting on the Senate, but it will pass there, too. You don't think Lieberman hasn't changed his mind in the past, do you? He has advocated diametrically different positions on just the use of the filibuster. Of course he lies, of course he changes his mind.

It will pass. Hang on to ur britches, friend! :cool:
 
He may not, but I will. When an industry is nationalized in a capitalist political economy, who owns the means of production?

Of course its Socialist. But who has ever heard of pure Capitalism? I for one havent.
 
tell it to the unlucky 13 who killed the doc fix, jackie, my friend

bayh, conrad, wyden, BILL nelson, feingold, mccaskill, tester, kohl, whitehouse, bobby kkk byrd, jiltin joe and virginians warner and combat boots webb
 
Of course its Socialist. But who has ever heard of pure Capitalism? I for one havent.

Great, now tell me why it is socialist when nationalization results in both the proletariat and the bourgeoisie owning the means of production?
 
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Of course its Socialist. But who has ever heard of pure Capitalism? I for one havent.

So what about health care makes it so different from every other industry that you advocate socializing health care without advocating socializing every other industry?

I have yet to hear a reasonable answer to this.

Nobody is advocating socialized food, or socialized clothes, or socialized anything else. So why health care?
 
i've still to see a single liberal DEFEND one of the 16 pernicious provisions contained in obamacare

1. half a T cuts to m and m

2. mandates on individuals to buy that which they can't afford, fines if they don't, jail at the end

3. unfunded mandates on already bankrupt states, talk to difi and harry

EDITORIAL: The mother of unfunded mandates - Washington Times

4. dem governors ritter, gregoire, schweitzer and bill richardson have joined TN's phil bredesen as violent, vehement, vocal objectors to this forcing the states to underwrite hundreds of B's of obama's fantasies

5. ten years of taxes vs 6 or 7 years of bennies

6. the doc fixes

7. 1.4T, including the "fix"

8. how it's paid for---massive taxes, penalties, fines, mandates

9. the dire differences between house and senate creations

10. taxes on small biz and big biz, jobs killer

11. the fact that the cuts to m and m, huge part of how obama "pays for" crap, will never occur, destroying the deficit

12. taxes on the rich---dead letter in the senate

13. taxes on benefits---anathema to unions

14. taxes on insurers, manufacturers, pharmaceuticals

15. the incentive for employers to dump coverage

16. the crafting of all this in secret, dumped on membership and the public always at the last second
 
This bill is clearly unconstitutional. Imagine sending people to jail for not buying insurance!! The Soviet Union has been resurrected right here in the United States. Pelosi is a disgrace and Obama is worse. Both socialists if not outright communists. The gulags and firing squads can't be far behind.
 
So what about health care makes it so different from every other industry that you advocate socializing health care without advocating socializing every other industry?

I have yet to hear a reasonable answer to this.

Nobody is advocating socialized food, or socialized clothes, or socialized anything else. So why health care?

Because healthcare is a neccessity and a right that is more often than not unaffordable.
 
Re: House approves landmark healthcare reform bill

Now the Democrats need to try and remove those Dems who voted no by withdrawing funds for them from party coffers and running more progressive people against them.
I think the Democratic and Communist Parties should merge.
 
Could you name a few ineffective, untimely socialist medical systems?

LOL
Canada, Germany, Finland, Sweden, England, France, Italy... and on and on...

... I know... I've lived half my life in the EU, and most of the countries listed, and you can add a few more... Lived... not visited.

Chew on the following for a while... and remember, the Germans are known for making things work... LOL

google translator... I don't have the time...
Welcher Patient geht leer aus?“
(Which patient is going to go empty handed?)
Eckhard Nagel transplant surgeon from the National Ethics Council explains the need to ration medical care

FOCUS: German health politicians will assert that full coverage of the population would remain with the forefront of medicine. In contrast, the National Ethics Council now proposes a new public debate about rationing. Is this really necessary?

Nagel: Announcements, for each treatment was at all times hochleistungsmedizinische feasible, I think is a dangerous suppression of reality. Rationing is part of everyday life in medicine and will increase in future (ZIMMER PERSONAL NOTE: in socialist systems). Even today, patients have to wait for important operations, because such are not enough seats for its intensive care are available. Also needs to be decided in transplantation medicine, which patient receives a saving institution and which no seats, and possibly died on the waiting list. This dilemma is considered too little.

FOCUS: Why has not held a public discussion about rationing?

Nagel: The allocation of limited health goods from cost factors is an extremely sensitive issue on which our society is ill prepared. Politicians have made the experience that she had rather inconvenient truth. Otherwise they run the risk of being punished as a bearer of bad news - for example at the ballot box. Despite everything, I believe it is their duty to clearly identify the problem situation, even if there is no easy way out of it visible.

FOCUS: Can we avoid the limited allocation, as we raise more money for the health system?

Nails: At the moment already. However, medical progress has no foreseeable limits. We are made in each case to the question of what we can afford. Is it even possible to provide all health goods as before to after the of equality? Or should the treatment after the budget of the patient, his age or his social embeddedness judge? Must pay an injured his therapy out of pocket if he caused the accident itself? Such scenarios have to respond, and that takes is an ethical debate.

FOCUS: Should 85-year-old fear that they will receive an artificial hip or heart valve?

Nagel: I think so. But of course, decisions on ethical dilemmas remain conflict is not enough. We must strive just to the best of all strategies. This decision process needs to be maximized transparent (ZIMMER PERSONAL NOTE: ROTFLMFAO). Only then will the people get the feeling that they are involved in the deliberations, even if they do not approve of (ZIMMER PERSONAL NOTE: ROTFLMFAO... THEY CANNOT COMPLAIN WHEN THEY ARE DEAD).

FOCUS: What do you fear, when politicians and citizens continue to ignore that rationing has to be?

Nagel: This can have fatal consequences, in which the patient - and we all suffer - unnecessarily sometime. As will be discussed today about the cost of health only in the short term and with slogans, emotional statement to the situation. This is an unfortunate way to kick start the discussion, because it causes anxiety. Citizens feel existentially delivered.

Eckhard Nagel, 46, a health scientist of the University of Bayreuth.

The Augsburg surgeon was appointed in 2001 in the National Ethics Council.

Medizin: „Welcher Patient geht leer aus?“ - News - FOCUS Online

Like I said... enjoy it suckers. Government is the only place you NEVER get what you paid for. You get half as much, if lucky, and it costs twice the free market, AND it's slow... so slow it might be fatal in this instance.

Enjoy. :rofl
(I would put a smiley-face ass-****ing another smiley-face (in pain), but that set doesn't exist in our collection).
 
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wait times are such a problem above the 49th, the provinces and central govt in ottawa have been forced to address them

the federal and provincial "Ten Year Plan to Strengthen Health Care" has, however, not been real effective

surf around within the links contained in the following, put up by the govt to allay the POLITICAL concerns of canadians concerning their coverage and care:

Canadian Wait Times Alliance Urges Speed in Reducing Health Care Wait Times in Canada
 
Re: House approves landmark healthcare reform bill

I think the Democratic and Communist Parties should merge.

They have... most just don't know it.
Now known as The SAPs. Socialists of America Party.

wait times are such a problem above the 49th, the provinces and central govt in ottawa have been forced to address them

the federal and provincial "Ten Year Plan to Strengthen Health Care" has, however, not been real effective

surf around within the links contained in the following, put up by the govt to allay the POLITICAL concerns of canadians concerning their coverage and care:

Canadian Wait Times Alliance Urges Speed in Reducing Health Care Wait Times in Canada

The Quebec SC ruled a while back that waiting lists do not constitute health care. It's a mess. A friend of 4 decades got rear ended... has big time back probs, and 2-years after the smack-up... has just been SCHEDULED for an MRI.

SCHEDULED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Reminds me of the joke about the Comm who gets a Lada in the good ol USSR.
At the end of the interview process he's TOLD the car will be here for pickup in 10-years... the guys asks... morning or evening... the KGB salesman says.. WHAT! It's in 10-years... the guy responds... I know, but the plumber is coming that morning!

.
 
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LOL
Canada, Germany, Finland, Sweden, England, France, Italy... and on and on...

... I know... I've lived half my life in the EU, and most of the countries listed, and you can add a few more... Lived... not visited.

Chew on the following for a while... and remember, the Germans are known for making things work... LOL

I am European, and i know what you say is largerly dishonest. Especially the crap about 7-8 year waiting lists.
Ive heard of cases where people have died on the waiting list, sure; but that happened under unforseeable medical circumstances, or they died waiting for a heart which was yet unavailible. Hell, there even harder to come by in private hospitals.


That translation was aweful. Find me English references if you want to, so i can be sure of its legitemacy too.

Like I said... enjoy it suckers. Government is the only place you NEVER get what you paid for.

Ive had surgery under the national health care system. It took me 4 months to recieve my treatment but i got it at the expense of no bills whatsoever. And my treatment wasnt in anyway related with my health. My grandpa who had a hole in his stomach got fixed with a camera which monitored the hole and recieved weekly top ups of blood. He recieved affordable medication to control the blood loss and 5 to 6 months in recieved the surgery to close the hole. He had a few months of monitoring after that (on and off appointments) and now he is fine. He is a retired man and doesnt have all the money in the world. It suits him just great and i know many other elderly Americans and young people who cannot afford the treatment will be grateful for the healthcare.

You get half as much, if lucky, and it costs twice the free market, AND it's slow... so slow it might be fatal in this instance.

Its very rare, and even then, under medically unforeseeable circumstances. And in the NHS, if they feel they will not be able to obtain the neccessary resources to carry out your surgery, they will transfer you to another UHC hospital that can, or recommend you to a private facility.

Enjoy. :rofl
(I would put a smiley-face ass-****ing another smiley-face (in pain), but that set doesn't exist in our collection).

Rimmer, most of your points are based on unfounded, sourceless fear mongering propaganda by the GOP.
 
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the "brain drain" or doctor shortage is another hot political button up north the last 10 years or more

here's the cbc's recent take:

CBC News - Health - Lack of science funding risks brain drain, CMAJ editorial warns

the third issue the provinces and ottawa have been forced to "deal with" to the tune of billions of dollars canadian is the compensation of those forced to emigrate south to secure services promised, paid for and denied in maple leaf land

i'll let you do the googling this time
 
I am European, and i know what you say is largerly dishonest. Especially the crap about 7-8 year waiting lists.
Ive heard of cases where people have died on the waiting list, sure; but that happened under unforseeable medical circumstances, or they died waiting for a heart which was yet unavailible. Hell, there even harder to come by in private hospitals.



That translation was aweful. Find me English references if you want to, so i can be sure of its legitemacy too.

1. You aren't too swift are you? If you do not believe the translation, run it through the translator yourself.

2. Legitmacy? The guy interviewed is a Surgeon on the GERMAN ETHICS BOARD.

3. It is not that difficult to understand. But I see you just have comprehension difficulties.

4. I never specified wait lists, but they are years long, not days.

5. And calling me "Rimmer". That dear friend is VERY THIN ICE.

Typical arrogant and ignorant European.

Double spaced for ease of reading... so you don't get confused.

.
 
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Re: House approves landmark healthcare reform bill

Reminds me of the joke about the Comm who gets a Lada in the good ol USSR.
At the end of the interview process he's TOLD the car will be here for pickup in 10-years... the guys asks... morning or evening... the KGB salesman says.. WHAT! It's in 10-years... the guy responds... I know, but the plumber is coming that morning!

!!!

that's one of my favorite jokes from the 80's

here's another:

2 comrades waiting in long line to buy vodka

ivan: i can't take it anymore, i'm gonna go shoot that gorbachev

he comes back hours later, his comrade still in the same place

vlad: did you do it, did you shoot him?

ivan: nah, the line there was even longer
 
I am European, and i know what you say is largerly dishonest. Especially the crap about 7-8 year waiting lists.
Ive heard of cases where people have died on the waiting list, sure; but that happened under unforseeable medical circumstances, or they died waiting for a heart which was yet unavailible. Hell, there even harder to come by in private hospitals.



That translation was aweful. Find me English references if you want to, so i can be sure of its legitemacy too.



Ive had surgery under the national health care system. It took me 4 months to recieve my treatment but i got it at the expense of no bills whatsoever. And my treatment wasnt in anyway related with my health. My grandpa who had a hole in his stomach got fixed with a camera which monitored the hole and recieved weekly top ups of blood. He recieved affordable medication to control the blood loss and 5 to 6 months in recieved the surgery to close the hole. He had a few months of monitoring after that (on and off appointments) and now he is fine. He is a retired man and doesnt have all the money in the world. It suits him just great and i know many other elderly Americans and young people who cannot afford the treatment will be grateful for the healthcare.



Its very rare, and even then, under medically unforeseeable circumstances. And in the NHS, if they feel they will not be able to obtain the neccessary resources to carry out your surgery, they will transfer you to another UHC hospital that can, or recommend you to a private facility.



Rimmer, most of your points are based on unfounded, sourceless fear mongering propaganda by the GOP.
Intesting this Euroapologist with the logo he has at the bottom of each post. You have zero credibility my friend, zero.
 
Re: House approves landmark healthcare reform bill

!!!

that's one of my favorite jokes from the 80's

here's another:

2 comrades waiting in long line to buy vodka

ivan: i can't take it anymore, i'm gonna go shoot that gorbachev

he comes back hours later, his comrade still in the same place

vlad: did you do it, did you shoot him?

ivan: nah, the line there was even longer

Just read this one...
The old joke ran that the best way to increase the value of a Skoda, made in the old Czechoslovakia, was to fill up the petrol tank.

Sounds like where GM is heading.
Mini cars to be laughed at.
GM: Closing Truck Plants; Introducing New Small Cars; Considering ...
3 Jun 2008 ... GM: Closing Truck Plants; Introducing New Small Cars; ... Pontiac G5 and has been assigned to build GM's future compacts that replace them. ...
GM: Closing Truck Plants; Introducing New Small Cars; Considering Sale of Hummer - Auto Observer

.
 
Intesting this Euroapologist with the logo he has at the bottom of each post. You have zero credibility my friend, zero.

My signature shows the true nature of the EU for what it is. Why that would make me any less European or any less credible in the face of national health care is beyond me?
How the hell does support for UHC and its obvious successes in Canada and Europe make me a euroapologist?
 
My signature shows the true nature of the EU for what it is. Why that would make me any less European or any less credible in the face of national health care is beyond me?
How the hell does support for UHC and its obvious successes in Canada and Europe make me a euroapologist?

He's mad because you proved him wrong since you have personal experience and he does not.
 
1. You aren't too swift are you? If you do not believe the translation, run it through the translator yourself.

I do believe it. Legitemacy as in more than one source would be good, something you have thus far been unable to provide. An English text for starters would be bloody great.

3. It is not that difficult to understand. But I see you just have comprehension difficulties.

Find me an English source and ill refute every evidence you can try and gather against UHC and its successes outside of the US, with my comprehension difficulties.

4. I never specified wait lists, but they are years long, not days.

They are at most a year or two long depending on what you are on the list for (an organ transplant is typical of a year or so on the UHC, but is it any different in the private sector)? For anything else, like life saving surgery, you'll never usually be asked to wait more than a few months. And if you are in really bad condition you will be prioritized and seen to within weeks if the affordable medication they can provide in the meantime is enough to sustain you.
 
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