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Thread: House majority votes in favor Health Care Bill

  1. #131
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    Re: House majority votes in favor Health Care Bill

    still not finger pressed down on a single keystroke in defense of even one of the following

    no surprise, they're indefensible

    the bill has no chance in lieberman's lobby

    and the dems are permanently saddled with all of the below

    congrats, nancy

    1. half a T cuts to m and m

    2. mandates on individuals to buy that which they can't afford, fines if they don't, jail at the end

    3. unfunded mandates on already bankrupt states, talk to difi and harry

    4. dem governors ritter, gregoire, schweitzer and bill richardson have joined TN's phil bredesen as violent, vehement, vocal objectors to this forcing the states to underwrite hundreds of B's of obama's fantasies

    5. ten years of taxes vs 6 or 7 years of bennies

    6. the doc fixes

    7. 1.4T, including the "fix"

    8. how it's paid for---massive taxes, penalties, fines, mandates

    9. the dire differences between house and senate creations

    10. taxes on small biz and big biz, jobs killer

    11. the fact that the cuts to m and m, huge part of how obama "pays for" crap, will never occur, destroying the deficit

    12. taxes on the rich---dead letter in the senate

    13. taxes on benefits---anathema to unions

    14. taxes on insurers, manufacturers, pharmaceuticals

    15. the incentive for employers to dump coverage

    16. the crafting of all this in secret, dumped on membership and the public always at the last second

  2. #132
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    Re: House majority votes in favor Health Care Bill

    I'm not going to defend any of the points because I think government run health care is a bad idea but I am curious on the below points.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Prof View Post
    2. mandates on individuals to buy that which they can't afford, fines if they don't, jail at the end

    15. the incentive for employers to dump coverage
    What is the cost to each person? You previously said it was $1,000 per month but weren't able to back that up. Any ideas what this un affordable cost is going to be?

    Also, as an employer what is the incentive for me to dump my current coverage? Currently I make my choice of coverage based on balancing cost and appeal to my current and future employee's. Is the government run health care going to be cheaper for my employee's and a better service?
    "Gold gets dug out of the ground in Africa, or someplace. Then we melt it down, dig another hole, bury it again and pay people to stand around guarding it. It has no utility. Anyone watching from Mars would be scratching their head."
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  3. #133
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    Re: House majority votes in favor Health Care Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Gibberish View Post
    I'm not going to defend any of the points because I think government run health care is a bad idea but I am curious on the below points.



    What is the cost to each person? You previously said it was $1,000 per month but weren't able to back that up. Any ideas what this un affordable cost is going to be?

    Also, as an employer what is the incentive for me to dump my current coverage? Currently I make my choice of coverage based on balancing cost and appeal to my current and future employee's. Is the government run health care going to be cheaper for my employee's and a better service?
    1. the cost is whatever the price is for a family to insure itself

    2. the fine is cheaper than insuring a worker (read the link)

  4. #134
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    Re: House majority votes in favor Health Care Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by The Prof View Post
    1. the cost is whatever the price is for a family to insure itself
    Which varies depending on the family and insurance carrier you choose. I insure my entire family for under $500 per month, that is through my company though. When I was a consultant I insured my family for about $750 (PPO still).

    If the government plans are to be competitive with and more affordable then private plans then my guess is they need to be under $150 per person a month.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Prof View Post
    2. the fine is cheaper than insuring a worker (read the link)
    That's not incentive. It's currently cheaper for me to offer no insurance to my employee's and tell them to get their own, that doesn't mean I'm going to do it. For employers to stay competitive in the hiring market they have to appeal to job seekers by offering an attractive benefits package. The job market is going to drive what types of insurance plans companies offer.
    Last edited by Gibberish; 11-09-09 at 01:32 AM.
    "Gold gets dug out of the ground in Africa, or someplace. Then we melt it down, dig another hole, bury it again and pay people to stand around guarding it. It has no utility. Anyone watching from Mars would be scratching their head."
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    Re: House majority votes in favor Health Care Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Dav View Post
    Okay, then create public health care for the poor. Oh wait, we already have that. It's called Medicaid.
    Do only the poor have rights to afforadable healthcare?

    Food, clothes, and shelter are necessities too. Nobody is suggesting that we socialize those though.
    Its called state-run hostels and unemployement benefits which pretty much provide this indirectly anyway.

    Again: why should the health care industry be socialized if other industries shouldn't be socialized?
    Because we have already created social programmes to support people to obtain goods from the industries that provide these neccessities. We havent directly socialized it. I think your against socialization of healthcare just for the sake of it not being "capitalist" per se.
    "If religious instruction were not allowed until the child had attained the age of reason, we would be living in quite a different world" - Christopher Hitchens
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    Re: House majority votes in favor Health Care Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Gibberish View Post
    Which varies depending on the family and insurance carrier you choose. I insure my entire family for under $500 per month, that is through my company though. When I was a consultant I insured my family for about $750 (PPO still).
    well, there ya go

    That's not incentive. It's currently cheaper for me to offer no insurance to my employee's and tell them to get their own, that doesn't mean I'm going to do it. For employers to stay competitive in the hiring market they have to appeal to job seekers by offering an attractive benefits package. The job market is going to drive what types of insurance plans companies offer.
    tell it to the milwaukee business journal

    and 100 others

    these days, it's not real hard for "employers to stay competitive in the hiring market"

    all they gotta do is whisper in the morning to a neighbor they're hiring

    they get flooded with ap's by lunch

    times are changing

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    Re: House majority votes in favor Health Care Bill

    NHS Cornwall moved her to a private hospital and funded the expenses.

    That was written in November 2001, its staff has since been expanded.

    Orthodontists say that in many parts of England, the NHS has effectively ceased to provide corrective dental surgery for children.

    That was because in those parts of England, the private sector, which was forced to compete with the national health service, offered better prices and smaller waiting lists, which led to large privatization of healthcare in that area and with it a lack of Orthodontists for the national healthcare service. Says so in the article.

    Another reason why national health care is good: it forces competition amongst private sector healthcare units. Also, as those citizens pay their national health tax, they are obliged to be transferred to a private ward and their expenses funded by the UHC. All you need to do is contact your local member of parliament or ask your doctor for a referral.

    Who makes the prioritization decision on who goes ahead of whom at these UHC hospitals? Going back to my example, if you're in extreme pain and they re-prioritize, does that mean 5 years goes down to 2 years?
    There are, i believe, about 2 lists. The first list is the normal waiting list - depending on what you want, you could wait up to anything within 18 months of seeing you GP. Then there is the special list for people in agony but are able to eliminate the pain with morphine tablets and other medication the UHC provides - and then for those who need life saving surgery should recieve it almost immediately or be transferred to the private sector and funded by the national government, paticularly if your finances are not enough to pay off the debts.

    Now I'll have to schedule this to occur in "months" and then results may show I have "years" to wait for a procedure, and then I may not be viewed as "in enough pain" by a bureaucrat, so I'll need to suffer until they're ready... and now that my work may be affected, I may not have enough money to change to a private insurance company who can take me now. Gee, this sounds great...
    Then you have the option to switching to private healthcare which is always their for those, such as yourself, fortunate enough to obtain such services. If you can prove you are financially unable to do this, however, the UHC will fund it, and will do so anyway if they transfer you themselves. Remember the difference between transferral and referral.

    The NHS is paticularly useful for those who have medical conditions and require expensive medication. These sorts of services that do not rely on Doctors under huge pressure from the system are offered immediately, more often than not.

    There is no doubt that National Health Care almost always results in huge amounts of demand from the system. This type of thing is inevitable; but it doesnt render UHC bad. Because, you will recieve the medication eventually and you do have the option to change to private or recieve UHC funding. All you can hope for is that Obama legislates it so that it is properly staffed and financed; otherwise, there should be no problem. Here in the UK, i believe there is quiet a staff shortage, but we have far less employement potential compared to the 300 million large America.
    Last edited by kaya'08; 11-09-09 at 08:10 AM.
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    Re: House majority votes in favor Health Care Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by kaya'08 View Post
    My signature shows the true nature of the EU for what it is. Why that would make me any less European or any less credible in the face of national health care is beyond me?
    How the hell does support for UHC and its obvious successes in Canada and Europe make me a euroapologist?
    Your hypocritical about the UHC. You sit there supporting that crap, but tell us you got surgery in 4 months at the same time you have a Heil Hitler logo. Which is it with you? So a Nazi-like regime has the best healthcare, but you have to wait 4 months? People with deadly diseases have to wait 6 months to get on the Obamacare govt program. They could be dead by then. Dude, you're sending all kind of mixed signals.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
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    Re: House majority votes in favor Health Care Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    Your hypocritical about the UHC. You sit there supporting that crap, but tell us you got surgery in 4 months at the same time you have a Heil Hitler logo. Which is it with you? So a Nazi-like regime has the best healthcare, but you have to wait 4 months?
    omg, the NHS is NATIONAL BRITISH healthcare, it has nothing to do with Europe.

    Whats 4 months when its affordable and secures my rights to healthcare along with my countrymen without having to worry about endless life comprimising debts??

    In the US, whether you pull through with the surgery or not, it doesnt matter, either way you wont have a life by the end of it.

    People with deadly diseases have to wait 6 months to get on the Obamacare govt program. They could be dead by then. Dude, you're sending all kind of mixed signals.
    No im not. Where?

    My message is simple. If you have a deadly disease and will not survive long enough to be on the waiting list, you will get transferred by the UHS and your expenses funded.

    And even if that wasnt the case. The people with "deadly diseases" still have the option to go private, so how does the UHC in anyway harm said person? Its not STOPPING them going private. At the end of the day, its the indivisuals choice to make a responsible decision based on current circumstances. Dont make out its the end of the world. Your also told an approxiate date of OP anyway.

    Plus, if that person goes to the UHC in the first place chances are they are financially unable to go to the private sector anyway. So if the UHC didnt exist, what do you have? A dead person who couldnt go hospital because he couldnt afford it. Either way you have the same result only with the UHC they will fund your expenses or prioritize your surgery. Which is better?
    Last edited by kaya'08; 11-09-09 at 09:32 AM.
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  10. #140
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    Re: House majority votes in favor Health Care Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by kaya'08 View Post
    NHS Cornwall moved her to a private hospital and funded the expenses.
    After how long of a wait?


    Quote Originally Posted by kaya'08 View Post
    That was written in November 2001, its staff has since been expanded.
    So the moral of the story is, people will suffer for years until things are fixed. Here's to hoping we're not one of the unlucky. Not acceptable.


    Quote Originally Posted by kaya'08 View Post
    Orthodontists say that in many parts of England, the NHS has effectively ceased to provide corrective dental surgery for children.

    That was because in those parts of England, the private sector, which was forced to compete with the national health service, offered better prices and smaller waiting lists, which led to large privatization of healthcare in that area and with it a lack of Orthodontists for the national healthcare service. Says so in the article.
    Ah, so it's all because of competition and the high rate of acceptance of the NHS.

    Waiting 7 years is never acceptable.


    Quote Originally Posted by kaya'08 View Post
    Another reason why national health care is good: it forces competition amongst private sector healthcare units.
    It also forces competition out - meaning there are less doctors and less private places to go to, meaning that demand increases while supply dwindles and government artificially deflates prices, running private hospitals and insurance out. Not a good motivation for attracting talented medical workers and surgeons.


    Quote Originally Posted by kaya'08 View Post
    Also, as those citizens pay their national health tax, they are obliged to be transferred to a private ward and their expenses funded by the UHC. All you need to do is contact your local member of parliament or ask your doctor for a referral.
    FORCED to pay the health tax you mean --- and I find it insane to call my government to get a medical referral. Do I also call my plumber to procure a referral to a good bank? This might work in down-trodden and government soaked Europe but there will be riots if this is how it works in the U.S.


    Quote Originally Posted by kaya'08 View Post
    There are, i believe, about 2 lists. The first list is the normal waiting list - depending on what you want, you could wait up to anything within 18 months of seeing you GP.
    Whew... let's hope it's not cancer then eh? Or heart disease... or mini strokes... maybe this is one of those secondary benefits under the moniker of "population control". I can get a GP today, within a few hours... why the hell would anyone want to wait 18 months? What ****ing planet are people living on that they accept this?


    Quote Originally Posted by kaya'08 View Post
    Then there is the special list for people in agony but are able to eliminate the pain with morphine tablets and other medication the UHC provides
    Well thank God for the steady stream of morphine... a few years on morphine is much better than getting the problem taken care of within a month don't you think?


    Quote Originally Posted by kaya'08 View Post
    and then for those who need life saving surgery should recieve it almost immediately or be transferred to the private sector and funded by the national government, paticularly if your finances are not enough to pay off the debts.
    Again, who makes this determination of "who needs life saving surgery"? And it sounds like - if the UHC cannot handle it, the financial burden goes back on the individual anyway which is what the U.S. has now.. so what the hell am I benefiting again? Let's recap:

    - 18 month waits on GP visits
    - 2 priority lists, possibly three with bureaucrats making decisions about your health
    - Free morphine tablets
    - If you really need attention now, a transfer to the private sector where you have to pay out of pocket anyway

    Holy ****...


    Quote Originally Posted by kaya'08 View Post
    Then you have the option to switching to private healthcare which is always their for those, such as yourself, fortunate enough to obtain such services. If you can prove you are financially unable to do this, however, the UHC will fund it, and will do so anyway if they transfer you themselves. Remember the difference between transferral and referral.
    We have this now with no waits, immediate diagnostics, and quick procedures with no addictive morphine tablets or years of waiting. If the UHC funds it - the individual must wait on the previous lists and we're back to square one. A bullet in the head sounds preferable - which is the last option I assume though in England, guns are hard to come by and now I know why.



    Quote Originally Posted by kaya'08 View Post
    The NHS is paticularly useful for those who have medical conditions and require expensive medication. These sorts of services that do not rely on Doctors under huge pressure from the system are offered immediately, more often than not.
    Good for drugs, bad for procedures and hope you don't have an aggressive cancer or you'll have to convince Parliament that one is very sick. We all have to become very good sales people apparently to sell our illness to get treatment in a timely manner.


    Quote Originally Posted by kaya'08 View Post
    There is no doubt that National Health Care almost always results in huge amounts of demand from the system. This type of thing is inevitable; but it doesnt render UHC bad. Because, you will recieve the medication eventually
    Unless you die first, in which case it's not the fault of NHS because there's just too much demand...


    Quote Originally Posted by kaya'08 View Post
    and you do have the option to change to private or recieve UHC funding. All you can hope for is that Obama legislates it so that it is properly staffed and financed; otherwise, there should be no problem. Here in the UK, i believe there is quiet a staff shortage, but we have far less employement potential compared to the 300 million large America.
    Sounds like a ****ing nightmare... The only comfort is the liberals will hopefully suffer just as much as everyone else. There's a little space in hell hopefully for all those wanting to throw away a perfectly good system that needs only to be fixed in certain areas - which treat people immediately, provide diagnostics immediately. If we thought dealing with Insurance company's was bad ... just wait until we have to deal with the government and we get the news: "Oh I'm sorry sir/madam, we have you scheduled for 2013, January 9th for your tumor removal. Until then, here! Have some complimentary morphine pills!"

    Makes me want to vomit.

    I also noticed you didn't address the last link I provided showing how the NHS is causing deaths... how come?
    Last edited by Ockham; 11-09-09 at 09:35 AM.

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