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Thread: House majority votes in favor Health Care Bill

  1. #91
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    Re: House majority votes in favor Health Care Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by kaya'08 View Post
    Could you name a few ineffective, untimely socialist medical systems?
    NHS in Britain.

    So is this where you claim it's not socialist? Or do we dither of the definition of "ineffective"?

    Maybe Canada's medicine would be another? I'm no fan of NHS or Canada's system frankly - I'd much rather keeping our system but just fixing some things. This take over is over the top, not needed and simply a political power game. I know the left wants power to be with the government and that's who's pushing this.

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    Re: House majority votes in favor Health Care Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    Not gonna happen - tort reform requires sacrifices by the legal community of which Congress makes up a very reflective amount. They're not going to curb their own influence just like they won't curb their voting themselves pay increases.
    I said torte!

    It seems as if Republicans want it and the Great Whig Party wants it. If there is enough public clamour it may happen. If the cost of this healthcare can be linked to insurance costs then perhaps. I think the cost of medication muddies the water, though.

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    Re: House majority votes in favor Health Care Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    NHS in Britain.

    So is this where you claim it's not socialist? Or do we dither of the definition of "ineffective"?
    Ineffective, of course.

    Maybe Canada's medicine would be another? I'm no fan of NHS or Canada's system frankly - I'd much rather keeping our system but just fixing some things. This take over is over the top, not needed and simply a political power game. I know the left wants power to be with the government and that's who's pushing this.
    What part of Canada's system or the NHS system is untimely, ineffective and unaffordable, though? Granted, it could take months just to get a CT scan. But if the UHC can see your condition is serious and is deteriorating fast, you will be moved to the top of the list at your local UHC hospital. Otherwise, its worth waiting, especially if it means it doesnt burn a $1,000+ hole in your wallet.

    Also, dont act as if this is a complete take over of the private health sector - it isnt. It wont kill you to have two options and give those unfortunate Americans the choice of choosing an alternative, affordable method.
    Last edited by kaya'08; 11-08-09 at 03:50 PM.
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    Re: House majority votes in favor Health Care Bill

    At the end of the day, if your so against it, you can seek healthcare by private insurance companies and hospitals. The law may pass but you wont have to have anything to do with it.
    "If religious instruction were not allowed until the child had attained the age of reason, we would be living in quite a different world" - Christopher Hitchens
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    Re: House majority votes in favor Health Care Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by kaya'08 View Post
    Ineffective, of course.



    What part of Canada's system or the NHS system is untimely, ineffective and unaffordable, though? Granted, it could take months just to get a CT scan. But if the UHC can see your condition is serious and is deteriorating fast, you will be moved to the top of the list at your local UHC hospital. Otherwise, its worth waiting, especially if it means it doesnt burn a $1,000+ hole in your wallet.
    It's not always worth waiting. For example the extreme cases are people waiting in pain for sometimes, up to 7 or 8 years for a replacement hip, knee or other non-life threatening affliction. They wait because they are prioritized. Have you lived with extreme pain for say 5 years that affects your life, your job (or lack thereof), day in and day out. Not fun. That's untimely and ineffective in my book. There's also no guarantee that a deteriorating condition will re-prioritize anything. You're speaking like you know how this is all going to work when it doesn't even get put in place until 2013. You really can't say how it will work, if it will work well, or how people will get prioritized.

    Quote Originally Posted by kaya'08 View Post
    Also, dont act as if this is a complete take over of the private health sector - it isnt. It wont kill you to have two options and give those unfortunate Americans the choice of choosing an alternative, affordable method.
    It has the potential to take over exactly that. From a dollars and cents means - corporations will pay the amount to the government and drop Company paid plans because they save money. Secondly, by dropping workers, it forces them into the artificially low cost public plan - why? Because the government won't let it's own plan fail. Let's get real. This isn't an overnight take over - it's a gradual and long term removal. Make a dependency on government over the next generation and no one will be able to get rid of it --- example1: Social Security example2: Medicare example3: Medicaid. Who's going to take anyone seriously who wants to ditch those programs? Same will happen with government run health care. And as we've seen in NHS in both Canada and Britain, it does kill - whether or not it will kill me personally we'll have to wait and see.

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    Re: House majority votes in favor Health Care Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by kaya'08 View Post
    The real question is, does this healthcare bill openly violate the constitution? And not just "in your view". But does it actually violate it?
    Read the constitution and see if it lists UHC as a "enumerated power" of the Federal Government.

    Hint..... it doesn't, those powers rest with the States or the citizens of the States.

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    Re: House majority votes in favor Health Care Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Crunch View Post
    Read the constitution and see if it lists UHC as a "enumerated power" of the Federal Government.

    Hint..... it doesn't, those powers rest with the States or the citizens of the States.
    Does it list the UHC as an enumerated power of the state?
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    Re: House majority votes in favor Health Care Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    It's not always worth waiting. For example the extreme cases are people waiting in pain for sometimes, up to 7 or 8 years for a replacement hip, knee or other non-life threatening affliction. They wait because they are prioritized. Have you lived with extreme pain for say 5 years that affects your life, your job (or lack thereof), day in and day out. Not fun.
    Which is why some people have the option to go private. I have never heard of such extreme cases whereby somebody has to wait up to 7 to 8 years for treatment, i have heard about 2 years at most, an extreme scenario, and she was not living in constant agony either. Where did you here that?

    That's untimely and ineffective in my book. There's also no guarantee that a deteriorating condition will re-prioritize anything. You're speaking like you know how this is all going to work when it doesn't even get put in place until 2013. You really can't say how it will work, if it will work well, or how people will get prioritized.
    That is how it works in all of the countries i have been to with a UHC. You need to remember it isnt one big hospital. Its many hospitals belonging to the UHC in your local area/state. If you are in extreme pain they will prioritize and move you to the top of the list, if the affordable medication they provide you in the mean time does not suffice to ease your pain. Unless your federal government intends to kill of its citizens and get itself sued left and right, believe me, they wont have any other choice but to prioritize.

    It has the potential to take over exactly that. From a dollars and cents means - corporations will pay the amount to the government and drop Company paid plans because they save money. Secondly, by dropping workers, it forces them into the artificially low cost public plan - why? Because the government won't let it's own plan fail. Let's get real. This isn't an overnight take over - it's a gradual and long term removal.
    If this does happen its because of the way Obama has legislated the bill.
    Otherwise, where else have you seen this happen? In Britain, the private sector rakes in just as much money as the NHS.

    Make a dependency on government over the next generation and no one will be able to get rid of it --- example1: Social Security example2: Medicare example3: Medicaid. Who's going to take anyone seriously who wants to ditch those programs? Same will happen with government run health care. And as we've seen in NHS in both Canada and Britain, it does kill - whether or not it will kill me personally we'll have to wait and see.
    The NHS kills? Do you have a link?
    "If religious instruction were not allowed until the child had attained the age of reason, we would be living in quite a different world" - Christopher Hitchens
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    Re: House majority votes in favor Health Care Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by kaya'08 View Post
    Does it list the UHC as an enumerated power of the state?
    Amendment 9 - Construction of Constitution. Ratified 12/15/1791.

    The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.


    Amendment 10 - Powers of the States and People. Ratified 12/15/1791. Note

    The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

    Section 8 - Powers of Congress...snip
    The United States Constitution - The U.S. Constitution Online - USConstitution.net

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    Re: House majority votes in favor Health Care Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    NHS in Britain.

    So is this where you claim it's not socialist?
    He may not, but I will. When an industry is nationalized in a capitalist political economy, who owns the means of production?

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