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Thread: Poland calls for more US troops

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    Re: Poland calls for more US troops

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmer View Post
    We don't have a habit of conquering nations and then taking them over.

    .


    Can I have a ticket to your performance?

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    Re: Poland calls for more US troops

    Quote Originally Posted by Elena View Post


    Can I have a ticket to your performance?
    Im very pro-US. But, can i have a second ticket?
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    Re: Poland calls for more US troops

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmer View Post
    And with your shaky logic, the Iranians should have nukes.

    .
    With my "shaky logic" the world would be a much safer place without nukes at all.

    But put yourself in "Iranian shoes": do you think Iraq or Afghanistan would've been invaded if they had nukes? Why N.Korea escapes "democratisation"?

    Iran is simply in a hurry to protect itself before the US will move in to "spread some democracy" there.

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    Re: Poland calls for more US troops

    Quote Originally Posted by Elena View Post
    I know what you were refering to.
    Then you must not understand how decisions in the White House are made if you do not believe such a decision was made without President Obama's approval.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elena View Post
    What usefulness?
    Since 1945 Europe was tied to the US economy and financial system by the rules of repaying war-time and post-war debts with interests. Also, the US positioned itself as Europe's protector against the USSR.
    But the disintegration of the Soviet Union and the fact that most European countries finished paying or were on the final stages of paying off the debt, as well as Europe's ever strengthening economies lead to European countries pulling away from the US that was now viewed as more of a competitor and thus US control was no longer welcomed.

    The US found itself in a position where although it won the Cold War and broke down the USSR, it was now in danger of loosing its "vassals" -- Europe! A declaration of a new common "enemy" -- Muslims failed to generate enough hysteria among Europeans for them to keep clinging to the US skirts. Meanwhile, Russia was getting off its knees and establishing economic and political ties with Europe. In addition, Europe was becoming increasingly dependent on Russia for energy sources, which in turn led to European countries drifting from US towards Russia and China.

    As Zbigniew Brzezinski pointed out, "it is imperative that no Eurasian challenger emerges, capable of dominating Eurasia and thus of also challenging America...
    To put it in a terminology that harkens back to the more brutal age of ancient empires, the three grand imperatives of imperial geostrategy are to prevent collusion and maintain security dependence among the vassals, to keep tributaries pliant and protected, and to keep the barbarians from coming together. Henceforth, the United States may have to determine how to cope with regional coalitions that seek to push America out of Eurasia, thereby threatening America's status as a global power."

    The first steps taken by US were to build a "wall" between Europe and Russia out of the former Soviet Block countries that German papers were referring to as "US Trojan donkeys in Europe". Also the old-time bogyman -- the USSR-- was wheeled out and the mass media started a campaign to instil in the minds of Europeans the notion that the modern day Russian Federation is the same thing as the Soviet Union and therefore it must be equally feared, and the only protection against it is America (Cold War 2).

    While the propaganda campaign was quite successful (it’s not uncommon to read the comments like "Russians are commies" (even though Russia's communist party was out of power for many years now)); the "wall" was far less successful. Now it looks like Obama is trying to ditch his "Trojan donkeys" altogether, they are too expencive to feed and for most part useless.

    The other aspect influencing the US change of tactics is that wars in Afghanistan and Iraq proved to be not as successful as the US corporations hoped (remember how many times Bush was declaring "victories"?); the US had to go to Russia for assistance. In such circumstances to continue NEEDLESSLY pissing off Russia is counter-productive...
    While very interesting, and at times, creative revisionism - you could have simply said that the U.S. was using Poland as a wedge between Europe and Russia. To which I would again have to ask --- what Usefulness did Poland provide? You gave a very nice dissertation that didn't answer the question. I know my history - so specifically, what role has Poland played?

    Poland has not been a major player in European politics since the fall of Russia, as a former Warsaw Pact controlled country, it played little in international affairs between 1955 and 1991, until the Solidarity movement and post martial law periods during 1981 and throughout the 80's were over. Lech Wałęsa for example was one of the members who were instrumental in breaking Communist leadership in Poland specifically and drove the wedge between Poland and Russia and which allowed Poland to become a NATO alliance partner.

    So what specific usefulness did Poland provide?
    Last edited by Ockham; 11-06-09 at 05:31 PM.

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    Re: Poland calls for more US troops

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post

    1. Then you must not understand how decisions in the White House are made if you do not believe such a decision was made without President Obama's approval.



    2. While very interesting, and at times, creative revisionism - you could have simply said that the U.S. was using Poland as a wedge between Europe and Russia. To which I would again have to ask --- what Usefulness did Poland provide? You gave a very nice dissertation that didn't answer the question. I know my history - so specifically, what role has Poland played?

    Poland has not been a major player in European politics since the fall of Russia, as a former Warsaw Pact controlled country, it played little in international affairs between 1955 and 1991, until the Solidarity movement and post martial law periods during 1981 and throughout the 80's were over. Lech Wałęsa for example was one of the members who were instrumental in breaking Communist leadership in Poland specifically and drove the wedge between Poland and Russia and which allowed Poland to become a NATO alliance partner.

    So what specific usefulness did Poland provide?
    1. If you think Obama decides anything you delude yourself. He is a figure-head. Look at what clans are pulling his strings.

    2. I already answered this question.
    But if you want I will rephrase my answer.

    Poland was meant to be part of a wall between Russia and Europe. As Poland is HISTORICALLY the most anti-Russian nation in existance it was meant to be the leader of an anti-Russian choir; and when I say "historically", I mean since the 13-th century when Polish-Lithuanian Empire concured Southern and Western Russia. That's all. Nothing special. The wall failed to materialise. That's why the US thought nothing of ditching it alongside with the Baltic states.

    To the US Ukraine and Georgia are now more important.

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    Re: Poland calls for more US troops

    Quote Originally Posted by Elena View Post
    1. If you think Obama decides anything you delude yourself. He is a figure-head. Look at what clans are pulling his strings.

    2. I already answered this question.
    But if you want I will rephrase my answer.

    Poland was meant to be part of a wall between Russia and Europe. As Poland is HISTORICALLY the most anti-Russian nation in existance it was meant to be the leader of an anti-Russian choir; and when I say "historically", I mean since the 13-th century when Polish-Lithuanian Empire concured Southern and Western Russia. That's all. Nothing special. The wall failed to materialise. That's why the US thought nothing of ditching it alongside with the Baltic states.

    To the US Ukraine and Georgia are now more important.
    You've failed to prove any usefulness - as I've stated, they were irrelevant until 1991. This fabled wall had nothing to do with Poland. Bringing up the 13th century is irrelevant.

    If Obama doesn't make the decisions who does? Don't tell me... the Ulluminati or the Bilderberg Group right? Or maybe the Masons?

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    Re: Poland calls for more US troops

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    You've failed to prove any usefulness - as I've stated, they were irrelevant until 1991.

    If Obama doesn't make the decisions who does? Don't tell me... the Ulluminati or the Bilderberg Group right? Or maybe the Masons?
    Ockham, Poland does not have any special "usefulness" apart from it can always be relied on to be anti-Russian (which is traditional). Its only "usefulness" was as a building block of a wall between Europe and Russia. And you are right, that "wall" had nothing to do with Polish interests and everything to do with the US interests in Europe.

    The last time Poland was truly relevant was around 16-th -- 17-th century. Since then Poland was always used as a loose change by big players. And this time it was used and discarded. What do you want to hear?

    Why "the Ulluminati"? From what I can see, the first clan behind Obama is Clinton clan... Take a look at others.
    Last edited by Elena; 11-06-09 at 07:05 PM.

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    Re: Poland calls for more US troops

    Quote Originally Posted by kaya'08 View Post
    Meanwhile President Dmitry Medvedev on Thursday praised a bill that permits the use of military force beyond Russia's borders but said that troops would only be deployed in extreme cases. "Today we don't have any problems on this issue from a legal point of view," Medvedev told parliament members. Earlier this year Medvedev submitted to parliament a bill aimed at giving the president a freer hand in deciding when to use troops outside the national borders.

    Both chambers of the Russian parliament voted in favor of the bill last month. "As our recent experience shows, a legal mechanism should be in place," he said in apparent reference to Russia's five-day war with Georgia last year.

    Russia criticizes Poland's call for US troops - Hurriyet Daily News and Economic Review
    Of course, Poland needs more troops. Their entire army just drowned while marching to the northern front.
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    Re: Poland calls for more US troops

    Quote Originally Posted by Elena View Post
    Ockham, Poland does not have any special "usefulness" apart from it can always be relied on to be anti-Russian (which is traditional). Its only "usefulness" was as a building block of a wall between Europe and Russia.

    The last time Poland was truly relevant was around 16-th -- 17-th century. Since then Poland was always used as a loose change by big players. And this time it was used and discarded. What do you want to hear?

    Why "the Ulluminati"? From what I can see, the first clan behind Obama is Clinton clan... Take a look at others.
    Poland has a fear of being taken over by Russian influence and dominance. Its against the Russians so put simply, its on our side.
    Therefore, if it is willing to contribute to Western security, considering its geographical location (a gateway into Russia's backyard but at the same time our neighbour), it would be wrong to ignore Poland and allow it to slip into the Russian vacuum in the region and strengthen them when we could have stopped it, but did nothing, even when they asked us.

    Poland has formally asked for troops because of the intimidation the Russians have resorted to by engaging in joint military activities with dictator Lukashenko beside the Polish boarder, which included the participation of hundrends of soldiers and many hundreds of tanks. Dont forget the bill they passed recently after their little incursion with Georgia.

    The 5 day war was evidence that Russia still has the ability to assert its influence by force. So any fear by Poland needs to be taken seriously. Drawing up plans for a missle defence shield with the full cooperation and permission of Poland, and then scrapping plans and leaving them in the cold, is hardly a decent thing to do.

    My initial thought was, keep the missile defence shield away from Russia. We dont need the Americans stirring up tensions with our neighbour...but after their little war with Georgia and their increasingly dictatorial government run by President for Life Vladimir Putin and puppet Medvedev, and their obvious intentions to intimidate neighbours as if to say "your ally screwed you over. You stuck your middle finger up at us when you thought you was gaurenteed protection. But, no protecting you now", then i believe Russia deserves everything NATO can throw at them.

    Obama done an injustice to the concerned people of Poland and i can only say sorry to them.
    Last edited by kaya'08; 11-06-09 at 07:15 PM.
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    Re: Poland calls for more US troops

    Quote Originally Posted by kaya'08 View Post
    Poland has a fear of being taken over by Russian influence and dominance. Its against the Russians so put simply, its on our side.
    Therefore, if it is willing to contribute to Western security,


    Poland has formally asked for troops because of the intimidation the Russians have resorted to by engaging in joint military activities
    And EU took Poland and the rest of European donkeys into the Union precisely to minimise the US influence on them and keep the way to Russia open.
    As you can see, the times of "Western interests" as euphemism for US interests are gone. There are interests of the US, and there are interests of Europe, and they are often at odds.

    Sorry to break the news, but military exercises (including the ones on the borders with other states, are nothing special. Few months ago the US conducted such exercises on Russian/Georgian border. What is good for the Goose, good for the Gander.

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