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Thread: 12 dead, as many as 31 injured in Fort Hood shootings

  1. #881
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    Re: 12 dead, as many as 31 injured in Fort Hood shootings

    Quote Originally Posted by Kali View Post
    They will play the mental health card. Look. I am mentally ill and think this asshole should DIE! Mentally Ill is not an excuse
    Ya, he was a psychiatrist... I would bet hard currency that he was self-medicating. Most likely with a prozac / Ritalin family of drug (SSRI's). It's the case in at least 90% of the recent mass shootings.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kali View Post
    Rights? Where are the dead victims rights? How can you defend this bastard?
    Listen, we live in a society where it's the rule of law... this is NOT a democracy where if 51% wanted him dead it would happen.

    The dead victims had the right to pull out a weapon and take the man down... it's sad but they didn't have the chance. People get killed all the time no matter where you live, there is a need for justice. Not revenge.

    Look, the point is that no matter how heinous the crime it does not justify eliminating the persons rights, because then you take the rights away from everyone.


    Quote Originally Posted by EpicDude86 View Post
    That was Kali or whoever. Go on...
    My bad... although seeing kali's latest addition is not a surprise...

    Doesn't mean you have to treat it like toilet paper, too.
    I'm actively saying that we need to defend and strengthen the bounds of the constitution, rather then with bills like 'patriot act', the 'give act', TARP. the new health-care bill, etc... that have decidedly unconstitutional to anti-constitutional intention behind it.

    I'm not so much supporting the Patriot Act as I am trying to exorcise you of your ignorance. For all its flaws, it has some good legislation that can be properly utilized in a number of other ways besides just infringing upon your rights and privacy. For example, It has been used to make prosecuting drug trafficking cases easier.
    Ok, then why didn't they call it a 'drug bill' then a 'counter-terrorism' bill... studying the times in which the patriot act is being used... it's only a fraction of the cases that are counter-terrorist. The rest have been used to elminate things like the right to privacy... since everyone can be legitimately wiretapped under patriot act (the section that was deemed unconstitutional)

    How many criminals have been arrested as Domestic Terrorists over acts that you think haven't been acts of Domestic Terrorism.

    I'll wait.
    Oddly enough, as an analogy, it's like say they passed a law that allowed cops to shoot criminals on sight. However, cops had not started shooting criminals on sight, and continued to arrest them normally... you could deny that the legislation or the potential exists because it's not been exercised... then suddenly one day a new batch of cops comes in trained under the new rules, and next thing you know you're sitting in a corner praying that no cops deems you a criminal.

    It's the same type of thing... right now the situation seems to be more along the lines of building legal precedences in order to justify massive policy shifts towards 'patriot act' compliant police training. Are you aware of the DHS reports?? I mean the ones that start to label different groups as 'extremist groups' (I mean horrendous criminals like : anti-war activists, pro-life groups, libertarians, etc their names listed with ACTUAL extremists like white-supremacist groups among others)?

    It's a situation that is slowly but surely building up.... I mean, we already have boyscouts and girlscouts training with homeland security... can anyone say 'hitler youth'?? (remember, people laughed at the Hitler youth when they were 16-17... but then once they were 18-19 and trained to kill they were no laughing matter)

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    Re: 12 dead, as many as 31 injured in Fort Hood shootings

    Quote Originally Posted by BmanMcfly View Post
    My bad... although seeing kali's latest addition is not a surprise...
    It's ok. I apologize for doubting your citizenship, your intentions are good.


    Quote Originally Posted by BmanMcfly View Post
    I'm actively saying that we need to defend and strengthen the bounds of the constitution, rather then with bills like 'patriot act', the 'give act', TARP. the new health-care bill, etc... that have decidedly unconstitutional to anti-constitutional intention behind it.
    I think there were better ways you could have phrased it. Much better ways, and still retained some sarcasm or humor.


    Quote Originally Posted by BmanMcfly View Post
    Ok, then why didn't they call it a 'drug bill' then a 'counter-terrorism' bill
    Cause it's the:

    Uniting and
    Strengthening
    America by
    Providing
    Appropriate
    Tools
    Required to
    Intercept and
    Obstruct
    Terrorism

    act. Ask your friends how many of them know the USA part of the USA PATRIOT act doesn't mean United States of America.




    Quote Originally Posted by BmanMcfly View Post
    ... studying the times in which the patriot act is being used... it's only a fraction of the cases that are counter-terrorist. The rest have been used to elminate things like the right to privacy... since everyone can be legitimately wiretapped under patriot act (the section that was deemed unconstitutional)
    If it was deemed unconstitutional by judges, then you may appeal any case in which you are convicted (there is the issue of precedence by State and level of court, but usually if one State finds something Federal to be unconstitutional, you can get a similar ruling in another state depending on the political affiliation of said Judges) under the patriot act and you can get a reversal on your conviction based on the unconstitutionality of the act.

    Quote Originally Posted by BmanMcfly View Post
    Oddly enough, as an analogy, it's like say they passed a law that allowed cops to shoot criminals on sight. However, cops had not started shooting criminals on sight, and continued to arrest them normally... you could deny that the legislation or the potential exists because it's not been exercised... then suddenly one day a new batch of cops comes in trained under the new rules, and next thing you know you're sitting in a corner praying that no cops deems you a criminal.
    Eh? I see what you're trying to say, but that particular analogy is a bit of a stretch, Cops can't shoot fleeing felons unless they have reason to believe they are a danger to the cops, and if they DO shoot, they had better hope they had a gun. Oddly enough, for all the people complaining about the Patriot Act, it sure didn't waste any time being renewed...but in that case Congressional voting records speak for themselves.

    Quote Originally Posted by BmanMcfly View Post
    It's the same type of thing... right now the situation seems to be more along the lines of building legal precedences in order to justify massive policy shifts towards 'patriot act' compliant police training. Are you aware of the DHS reports??
    Yes, and while I feel that report had some real douchebag comments, it's not all "Doom and Gloom" like Faux news wants you to believe, and not every Conservative protester is a possible Domestic Terrorist as liberal media was suggesting. There is a truthful middle ground to all this legislation but the propaganda surrounding it and the mainstream media that is for/against it is just making thinks murkier.


    Quote Originally Posted by BmanMcfly View Post
    I mean the ones that start to label different groups as 'extremist groups' (I mean horrendous criminals like : anti-war activists, pro-life groups, libertarians, etc their names listed with ACTUAL extremists like white-supremacist groups among others)?
    As I said above, it was a douche move for DHS, I just split your thought up between quotes. To be clear, I agree here.

    Quote Originally Posted by BmanMcfly View Post
    It's a situation that is slowly but surely building up.... I mean, we already have boyscouts and girlscouts training with homeland security... can anyone say 'hitler youth'?? (remember, people laughed at the Hitler youth when they were 16-17... but then once they were 18-19 and trained to kill they were no laughing matter)
    We just have to be ready for anything man.


    Good talk, kiddo. I feel like we're really connecting on a deep level.
    Last edited by EpicDude86; 11-09-09 at 12:34 AM.

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    Re: 12 dead, as many as 31 injured in Fort Hood shootings

    Quote Originally Posted by EpicDude86 View Post
    It's ok. I apologize for doubting your citizenship, your intentions are good.

    I think there were better ways you could have phrased it. Much better ways, and still retained some sarcasm or humor.
    Ya fair enough...

    Cause it's the:

    Uniting and
    Strengthening
    America by
    Providing
    Appropriate
    Tools
    Required to
    Intercept and
    Obstruct
    Terrorism

    act. Ask your friends how many of them know the USA part of the USA PATRIOT act doesn't mean United States of America.
    The one that gets me are how something that calls itself 'patriotic' can have aspects that are unconstitutional...

    Eh? I see what you're trying to say, but that particular analogy is a bit of a stretch, Cops can't shoot fleeing felons unless they have reason to believe they are a danger to the cops, and if they DO shoot, they had better hope they had a gun. Oddly enough, for all the people complaining about the Patriot Act, it sure didn't waste any time being renewed...but in that case Congressional voting records speak for themselves.
    Ya, it was definately a stretch... and I don't expect that type of law to happen, I was more trying to illustrate the situation in a way that would make the situation clear as possible.

    It's really sickening, I mean the senate has what, an 11-15% approuval rating?? Depending on who you ask... it's just because of that, it seems that on every issue government takes the polls of the wishes of the people and then votes accordingly the opposite of those wishes.

    Yes, and while I feel that report had some real douchebag comments, it's not all "Doom and Gloom" like Faux news wants you to believe, and not every Conservative protester is a possible Domestic Terrorist as liberal media was suggesting. There is a truthful middle ground to all this legislation but the propaganda surrounding it and the mainstream media that is for/against it is just making thinks murkier.
    I've seen examples of people getting pulled over for their bumper stickers since these reports have come out... One example, guy pulled over for 'abort Obama not babies' or something like that and got a visit from the secret service that night.

    The point is, these types of 'reports' are like toying with the idea of how receptive cops are to installing a police state. It's playing with fire.


    As I said above, it was a douche move for DHS, I just split your thought up between quotes. To be clear, I agree here.



    We just have to be ready for anything man.
    Well, we still haven't seen the 'ripple effect' of this mass shooting, that will likely be in the next 2 weeks -1 month... around the time this health bill that's passed the house will make it to the senate, where it will pass... and the president will sign it... and the nation will be too busy focusing on these shootings to discuss those more nationally pertinent issues... (yes yes, that's a 'conspiracy theory' but the health bill DID pass the house late night just 2 days after this shooting hit the news...)

    Good talk, kiddo. I feel like we're really connecting on a deep level.
    Cheers.

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    Re: 12 dead, as many as 31 injured in Fort Hood shootings

    Quote Originally Posted by bhkad View Post
    There are a number of reasons why he may not have been. Reluctance to permanently ding an officer's career or a doctor's record. The Army wants ethnic and religious diversity in it's ranks. A need for medical professionals. Ignorance of Islam leading to Political Correctness.
    Or the statements he was allegedly making prior to the incident weren't bad enough to actually get him investigated. I'm curious as to just what the hell the FBI was investigating about this man. For six months they were "watching" him? Who was? What was he doing six months prior to this incident that was bad enough to get him investigated but not bad enough for someone to knock on his door and say "Hi, were from the FBI, have a seat over there, we have some questions for you." Or if his commanders were aware that this man was actually making such outlandish statements didn't they bring him in and question him. It has nothing to do with some standing bull**** order for political correctness. The military doesn't operate that way. That is your hue and cry for how this government is leading our nation into the jaws of a beast because we don't want to offend the beast.

    It's codswallop, fear mongering, and utter horse ****. Here is what I think. I think this guy was against the war, he made some statements on his blog, and he was fairly enthusiastic about his religion. I think his activity raised some eyebrows, it was looked into, and it was determined to not be that big of a deal. I think he was in the throes of a horrible emotional crisis during all of this regarding conflicts about this religion and his opposition to the war. I also think he was a coward who didn't want to deploy. Then one day he snaps and commits mass murder. Because he screams "allah akbar" during this affair his emotional state is marginalized and his religion is put under the microscope. The anti-Islam fear mongers raise their battle flag and charge furiously shouting "See, this is Islam!" and come up with absurd theories about how this man had an "awakening" and acted because his religion commanded him to do so and basically "this is what Muslims do, any Muslim is capable of this kind of violence, you just never know when they will strike."

    Never mind that many Muslims can't seem to pray when they are commanded to, can't avoid alcohol when they are commanded to, lay with infidels even though they are commanded not to...but when it comes to killing other human beings they just can't resist the call.

    The common factor with people like bhkad, mbig, and others is that they are scared of a book. They are scared of an idea. Never mind that hundreds of millions of Muslims all over the world live peacefully...some don't. And the book, the book that scares them, says "kill the infidels." And some Muslims do. A very minute amount, but they do it. Somehow this translates into "Muslims could awaken to the call at any time and murder you! Islam is bad!" How absurd, but there it is. If it weren't so saddening I could content myself just to snicker at them.

    So these extremist anti-Islamic goons will take any angle necessary to vilify Islam. Like mbig and his Islamic body count website or his reference to Sudan. What escapes people like this, or possibly they ignore, is the entire geopolitical situation where these conflicts are taking place. When confronted they dodge or attempt to lay down a smoke screen or they complain that we're getting off topic. In mbigs case he just repeats the phrase "I'm the only one who brings facts and links." At the slightest sight of a challenge he simply ignores the challenge as if it didn't happen and begins to focus on calling you down for not posting links. Damn the debate process, there's an agenda to forward here!

    The guy was a Muslim who had an emotional melt down and killed a bunch of people. He didn't kill because he was a Muslim, he killed because he had a mental breakdown.
    *insert profound statement here*

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    Re: 12 dead, as many as 31 injured in Fort Hood shootings

    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
    ....Here is what I think. I think this guy was against the war, he made some statements on his blog, and he was fairly enthusiastic about his religion. I think his activity raised some eyebrows, it was looked into, and it was determined to not be that big of a deal. I think he was in the throes of a horrible emotional crisis during all of this regarding conflicts about this religion and his opposition to the war. I also think he was a coward who didn't want to deploy. Then one day he snaps and commits mass murder. Because he screams "allah akbar" during this affair his emotional state is marginalized and his religion is put under the microscope....
    Thanks for the opinion. Do you have evidence to support the opinion? If so, would you please share it with us? Thanks.

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    Re: 12 dead, as many as 31 injured in Fort Hood shootings

    Quote Originally Posted by Albert Di Salvo View Post
    Thanks for the opinion. Do you have evidence to support the opinion? If so, would you please share it with us? Thanks.
    Did you miss the part where I said "I think?"

    There is as much evidence to support my theory here as there is any other. And much more so than any "Muslim awakening" nonsense.

    We are all going off of what we are reading on the net and watching on T.V. are we not? So my evidence is found right there along with what everyone else is sifting through. The difference is that I am applying reason to the process. Whereas some forum members here are immediately entertaining absurd notions and foisting intolerant ideals as "fact." This entire thread is nothing but opinions based upon the news we are being fed from the media.

    There you go.
    Last edited by Lerxst; 11-09-09 at 01:07 AM.
    *insert profound statement here*

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    Re: 12 dead, as many as 31 injured in Fort Hood shootings

    Unless and until the man wakes up, it's all pretty much just hearsay.
    There's no proof of anything much, except that he was a self-described follower of Islam, he was previously law-abiding, he was persecuted for being a Muslim; to what extent, we don't know.
    There is factual evidence to support all these things, including police reports documenting the vandalism and persecution.
    Even if he does wake up and say something, I don't know how much stock we can put in it. He's going to say whatever's going to bring him the least pain, at this point.

    Unless evidence of his involvement with some radical Islamic terrorist group surfaces, we have no evidence that he was involved with a radical islamic terrorist group.
    It seems so unlikely that I'm not willing to waste time speculating about it at this point.

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    Re: 12 dead, as many as 31 injured in Fort Hood shootings

    Quote Originally Posted by 1069 View Post
    Unless and until the man wakes up, it's all pretty much just hearsay.
    There's no proof of anything much, except that he was a self-described follower of Islam, he was previously law-abiding, he was persecuted for being a Muslim; to what extent, we don't know.
    There is factual evidence to support all these things, including police reports documenting the vandalism and persecution.
    Even if he does wake up and say something, I don't know how much stock we can put in it. He's going to say whatever's going to bring him the least pain, at this point.

    Unless evidence of his involvement with some radical Islamic terrorist group surfaces, we have no evidence that he was involved with a radical islamic terrorist group.
    It seems so unlikely that I'm not willing to waste time speculating about it at this point.
    What I can almost promise you is that the anti-Islam goon squad will take his non-affiliation and use that as evidence that no Muslim can be trusted. "If they are true Muslims they don't need to be a part of a terror cell, all they need to do is do what this man did. In fact they are commanded to. It's their Islamic duty!"

    That's where this is going, hell...that's where it's already gone.
    *insert profound statement here*

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    Re: 12 dead, as many as 31 injured in Fort Hood shootings

    Quote Originally Posted by 1069 View Post
    Unless and until the man wakes up, it's all pretty much just hearsay.
    There's no proof of anything much, except that he was a self-described follower of Islam, he was previously law-abiding, he was persecuted for being a Muslim; to what extent, we don't know.
    There is factual evidence to support all these things, including police reports documenting the vandalism and persecution.
    Even if he does wake up and say something, I don't know how much stock we can put in it. He's going to say whatever's going to bring him the least pain, at this point.

    Unless evidence of his involvement with some radical Islamic terrorist group surfaces, we have no evidence that he was involved with a radical islamic terrorist group.
    It seems so unlikely that I'm not willing to waste time speculating about it at this point.

    There's also the outside chance that the guy will wake up and not have any recollection of what he did... most of the time these mass gunmen kill themselves, or are killed in the process of their arrest.

    If he does wake up and claim to have no memory of what he did, that would suggest more strongly that he was a victim of some sort of 'mk-ultra' experiments... Though, most likely he's just a prozac head that went nuts... it's on the insert that it can do that to you.

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    Re: 12 dead, as many as 31 injured in Fort Hood shootings

    Quote Originally Posted by BmanMcfly View Post
    There's also the outside chance that the guy will wake up and not have any recollection of what he did... most of the time these mass gunmen kill themselves, or are killed in the process of their arrest.

    If he does wake up and claim to have no memory of what he did, that would suggest more strongly that he was a victim of some sort of 'mk-ultra' experiments... Though, most likely he's just a prozac head that went nuts... it's on the insert that it can do that to you.
    I personally think he probably had issues for some time. The prolonged persecution by his fellow servicemen and women combined with his obvious opposition to the war and his impending deployment had taken a toll on him.

    Think about it. His religion was obviously a very big part of his life, as was his military career. Some people take their religious devotion very seriously, like this guy. Career soldiers are also very serious about their service. Two very big parts of his life were in direct conflict with one another and he was powerless to do anything about it. My guess is severe depression. He was in a situation he had no escape from and there was no sign of relief. In a twisted way I think he probably believed the military had betrayed him by subjecting him to religious persecution and ignoring his pleas. Plus I think he was a coward and didn't want to deploy.

    I can very easily see him saying "**** it, my life is over, they hate me because of my religion, I'll show them...allah akbar." I think he wanted to be killed, not because he wanted to be a martyr for Islam but because he felt he hated what his life had become. He got to take revenge on the social group that was tormenting him but couldn't commit suicide by his own hand. Suicide by cop. Well that was the idea. He would get even till someone put him down.
    Last edited by Lerxst; 11-09-09 at 01:36 AM.
    *insert profound statement here*

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