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Thread: 12 dead, as many as 31 injured in Fort Hood shootings

  1. #1021
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    Re: 12 dead, as many as 31 injured in Fort Hood shootings

    Quote Originally Posted by Albert Di Salvo View Post
    I learned long ago not to trust people who told partial truths, but not the whole truth. You talk about Jihad, without telling my brothers and sisters about the Greater Jihad and the Lesser Jihad. Tell us about the Lesser Jihad.
    Greater Jihad : To inhibit yourself from forbidden desires .

    Lesser Jihad : To fight your enemies inside the battlefield

    Battlefield : "A place where the battle is fought", then there must be 2 fighting parties, where the friend/foe are known . That's how all wars in Islam goes .

    About that "suicide bombers" I'd read an answer of a famous Sheikh : Bin Othaimin when asked about bomb suicide :
    ...... Concerning what some people do from suicide by holding those bombing-tools then attempt their suicide between enemies , then its "self killing" God forbid . And who attempt self killing will be in hell according to prophets Hadiith.......... We see how some people do believe that the suicide killing is a way to be a martyr, God forbid, its not .

    Question :
    Is it permissible for a Muslim to gloss over the organizers of the suicide bombers or their plans if they are Muslims or infidels if the goal is one which is damaging to a specific country on the grounds that this state is the common enemy of injustice and unfairness, and raped the land where Muslims and infidels together as we hear of the meeting of Christians with Muslims in Palestine to fight the Jews, Please advise us ?

    Answer :
    Its forbidden to cover the organizers of suicide bombings, and the one who cover them, is considered as cooperator, and the Prophet peace be upon him said :[Curse of God on who covers over the vandal] -Narrated by Muslim
    And Vandal means : Doing a criminal act which Islam refuses , that's why its forbidden to cooperate with them .
    Allah blessings and peace upon our Prophet Muhammad.

    Source: [(obvious opinions about the curriculum advocacy (Part II), p.: 59 - 66) of the scholar Shaykh Ahmad ibn Yahya stellar collection, and a comment: Mansour Hassan bin Aldgrere, i. (Dar curriculum) in Cairo - Egypt]
    ^
    ^
    Sorry for bad translation, but the dictionary didn't help a lot.

    I'd read an article of a book called "Self-bombing, between intolerance and depression" that analyze the exact mental state of the suicide . I think that really goes with suicide bomber's mind.

    Anyway What Major Nidal did may not consider a suicide, but still forbidden in Islam for many reasons, least of them is betrayal, "how can you shoot them while they protect you".

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    Re: 12 dead, as many as 31 injured in Fort Hood shootings

    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
    If Islam is the issue, then how do you explain away the hundreds of millions of peaceful Muslims all over the world?
    I want to believe that hundreds of millions of believers are peaceful. I want them to prove it to the rest of the civilized world by standing up in mass protest against those who have hijacked thier religion. Not only will this convince an old islamophobe like me and millions of other peace loving people, but it will also cause a reformation of islam.
    When America is strong the world is calm, When America is weak tyrants and terrorist slaughter the meek. ~ SgtRock

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    Re: 12 dead, as many as 31 injured in Fort Hood shootings

    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
    Well not necessarily. You think it would, but you never know until you are actually faced with that situation. Further there are plenty of conscientious objectors in the military. They serve in non-combat positions. Well by plenty I mean there are some.
    Thanks... I understand the fact that you never know how a person will react untill you put them in that situation... Some 'cowards' might lose it and become the most ferocious fighter, while an otherwise ferocious man might find a corner and start crying... you just don't know...

    I would have expected that there would be an element of psychological testing as a means to ensure that the highest percentage of soldiers sent into battle are going to be the fierce fighters that is intended, and those showing tendancies that they might be a burden to their squad would be relieved of that position...

    Well I suppose anything is possible. Two years ago I would have laughed at the suggestion of MK ULTRA. Now, not so much.
    I appreciate the actual willingness to accept the possibility... I felt compelled to bring up the possibility of a mind control experiement gone wrong (or exactly as planned?) in spit of the fact that it could end up becoming a debate on whether or not it exists (which has been declassified, and even my girlfriend was taught about the experiments in her pysch class, so it's a pretty rediculous debate)

    The big kicker will be if / when this guy wakes up. If he's got no clue about anything that's going on... well, the one common theme proposed for people psychologically programmed in that way is that they will be killed once their objective is accomplished, and with it being a subconscious program has no recollection of what he did... in some cases as bad as not knowing WHO he is... The entire area being not commonly known / accepted (Yes, there are still people that will deny that mk-ultra exists or that it was any success... but you can bet if there was ANY success, the testing has just gone further underground the prospect of a soldier that will accomplish his objective with no sense of self-preservation beyond that intent)

    Though, I will concede THIS is about EQUALLY like with "He was legitimately a muslim extremist that was bent on killing americans".

    This is absolutely a possibility, and I've thought about it as soon as word started spreading about his emotional profile.
    I've listened to interviews with a Dr specifically on the topic of SSRI's. this was almost a year ago now... so, details like her name and website are a little fuzzy, but the meat of it stuck because I was already semi-aware of the risks of those drugs.

    The notes she added are that these drugs do have a side-effect to cause people to commit suicide, have psychotic episodes, increased depression... but most importantly was that these side-effects are most commn in times when the user : stops using it, changes dosages, uses an alternative drug, etc... whenever there is any sort of change in the usage is when these side-effects occur.

    Being a psychiatrist, he probably felt he could handle it, or whatever... so switched his dosage or something that caused him to lose his inhibitions... This would also be a potential reason for not releasing his millitary record? (Or has this been released now?)

    There is about a 5% chance (based on precedences and total information) that this is NOT the case... now, there may be OTHER situations... but seriously 95% change these types of drugs were a factor.


    I initially wanted this man to die, and I'd being lying if I didn't admit I'm a death penalty hypocrite. I don't normally support the death penalty because I don't believe that our justice system is in the business of dispensing vengeance, and that is all the death penalty is. But this incident is one of those that made me immediately wish for this guys death.

    But you are right, we don't have all the information. That's kind of been my point from day one. In the face of all this nonsensical anti-Islam fear mongering and ignorant rhetoric I think that a simple call for reason wouldn't be too much to ask for. Apparently it is.

    But you and I and a few others can contemplate this issue without gathering our pitchforks and torches.
    Look, you got a dog that's got rabies and it could bite anyone at anytime... there's nothing that can be done, so you put it out of it's misery.

    Let him explain his case, but regardless he was almost definately in 'temporary insanity' category at least, but you can't forget that this guy IS in the millitary. SO he is far more dangerous if he's mentally instable.

    As for the muslim thing... yes, I suppose it's POSSIBLE that he was simply a muslim extremist that came to america, got his citizenship, joined the millitary just so that one day YEARS LATER and a degree in psychiatry (which is a Doctorate if I'm not mistaken) later he could get his taste of american blood... yes, there's about a 5% chance that this could be the case (or something similar)... but today in my local paper, I see this guys face and the article reads that this guy is connected to 9-11...

    I can't help but think 'WTHell if this guy was associated with 9-11, why hasn't he been questioned about that connection?? They would have pictures a dossier, it probably would have even been announced on the news...

    We should just face reality that the most likely scenario is that this guy was using anti-depressant drugs and had a psychotic episode of a side-effect for whatever reason.... it's the case in just about every school shooting there's ever been in the US ... as well as canada...

    Now, this guy needs to be held accountable for his actions... but a greater question (ONCE this is determined concretely) is how come this drugs are still being sold publicly and prescribed when they have such dire potential consequences (it' even been added to their drug insert).

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    Re: 12 dead, as many as 31 injured in Fort Hood shootings

    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
    If Islam is the issue, then how do you explain away the hundreds of millions of peaceful Muslims all over the world?
    How do you explain why all those peace loving, everybody love everybody Muslims can't put Islamic extremism to bed, forever? Why aren't Muslims in the street right now voicing their outrage over Islamic extremism? Why do Islamofacists find sanctuary in the Muslim community? Why don't Muslims, who know of extemist mosques, expose those mosques and the people who frequent them?
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: 12 dead, as many as 31 injured in Fort Hood shootings

    Quote Originally Posted by SgtRock View Post
    I want to believe that hundreds of millions of believers are peaceful. I want them to prove it to the rest of the civilized world by standing up in mass protest against those who have hijacked thier religion. Not only will this convince an old islamophobe like me and millions of other peace loving people, but it will also cause a reformation of islam.
    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    How do you explain why all those peace loving, everybody love everybody Muslims can't put Islamic extremism to bed, forever? Why aren't Muslims in the street right now voicing their outrage over Islamic extremism? Why do Islamofacists find sanctuary in the Muslim community? Why don't Muslims, who know of extemist mosques, expose those mosques and the people who frequent them?

    Muslims allover the world got much bigger worries than hold a big banner and walk with it down the street . Its not their problem if you watch too much TV .
    Last edited by Ahmed Shaheen; 11-09-09 at 08:38 PM.

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    Re: 12 dead, as many as 31 injured in Fort Hood shootings

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahmed Shaheen View Post
    Muslims allover the world got much bigger worries than hold a big banner and walk with it down the street . Its not their problem if you watch too much TV .
    And we've got much bigger worries too. How about some asshole, somewhere in desert, wants me dead. For no reason other than his own personal delusions...I mean...convictions.

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    Re: 12 dead, as many as 31 injured in Fort Hood shootings

    Quote Originally Posted by SgtRock View Post
    I want to believe that hundreds of millions of believers are peaceful. I want them to prove it to the rest of the civilized world by standing up in mass protest against those who have hijacked thier religion. Not only will this convince an old islamophobe like me and millions of other peace loving people, but it will also cause a reformation of islam.
    Why should they care when it's evident that we don't care until it happens to us?
    "I do not underestimate the ability of fanatical groups of terrorists to kill and destroy, but they do not threaten the life of the nation. Whether we would survive Hitler hung in the balance, but there is no doubt that we shall survive al-Qa'ida." -- Lord Hoffmann

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    Re: 12 dead, as many as 31 injured in Fort Hood shootings

    Quote Originally Posted by EpicDude86 View Post
    And we've got much bigger worries too. How about some asshole, somewhere in desert, wants me dead. For no reason other than his own personal delusions...I mean...convictions.
    Good news, He is not coming for you only.

    Bad news, you cant even reach him to change his mind

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    Re: 12 dead, as many as 31 injured in Fort Hood shootings

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    How do you explain why all those peace loving, everybody love everybody Muslims can't put Islamic extremism to bed, forever? Why aren't Muslims in the street right now voicing their outrage over Islamic extremism? Why do Islamofacists find sanctuary in the Muslim community? Why don't Muslims, who know of extemist mosques, expose those mosques and the people who frequent them?
    Give me a list of organizations and I would be glad to compile the reasons why they are finding sanctuary where they are.
    "I do not underestimate the ability of fanatical groups of terrorists to kill and destroy, but they do not threaten the life of the nation. Whether we would survive Hitler hung in the balance, but there is no doubt that we shall survive al-Qa'ida." -- Lord Hoffmann

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    Re: 12 dead, as many as 31 injured in Fort Hood shootings

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    How do you explain why all those peace loving, everybody love everybody Muslims can't put Islamic extremism to bed, forever? Why aren't Muslims in the street right now voicing their outrage over Islamic extremism? Why do Islamofacists find sanctuary in the Muslim community? Why don't Muslims, who know of extemist mosques, expose those mosques and the people who frequent them?
    Fear.

    The vast majority of victims of Islamic extremism are Muslims themselves. They kill their own a lot more often than they kill infidels. I'm thinking it's a lot like the Mafia problem in Italy, no matter how hard the Italian government fought to eradicate it, they've never really been able to rid the country of that cancer because a lot of people ended up "protecting" the Mafia thugs out of fear for their own lives and their family's safety.
    "Yes, but are you a Protestant atheist or a Catholic atheist?".- Northern Irish joke

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