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Maine voters repeal gay-marriage law

Goobieman said:
Ah! You have yet -another- chance to counter this argument:

Marriage is a legal status created by the state, and, as such, is necessarily a privilege conferred by the state, not a right.

Dont worry -- I have no doubt that you will continue to dodge this argument.
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In reality it's a matter of equal protection under the law. Because marriage is in the domain of the law, people must be treated equally with respect to it with the exception of overriding societal interests. I guess that's where it gets sticky. It seems extremely obvious to me that society has no real reason to deny gay marriage, certainly there is even less ground to argue against gay marriage than there was against miscegenation, as no kids can be directly produced.
 
tumbleweed said:
If the issue of allowing same sex marriage would have been presented to Maine voters in the form of a referendum question on a ballot before it was forced on Mainers from the legislature I believe the outcome would have been different.

I don't oppose gay marriage. What I was opposed to was legislation coming from lawmakers telling us once again that they are hell-bent on passing laws in Maine without voters being included in the decision making process.
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I think you are right, Maine is one of the more transparent states out there and the voters seem to want the whole truth and a little respect, certain locales are like that and tricky when certain items come up, so I suspect that is the case here, as Maine seems to lean socially liberal.
 
StandUpChuck said:
FWIW I just heard anywhere from 53-60% of registered voters turned out in Maine yesterday. No doubt this issue brought them.
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Huge turnout for an off-year election. I'm not happy about the results of question #1, but the turnout makes me proud. :mrgreen:
 
LiveUninhibited said:
In reality it's a matter of equal protection under the law. Because marriage is in the domain of the law, people must be treated equally with respect to it with the exception of overriding societal interests.
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Sure.
The issue I took was his claim that marriage is a right.
 
jackalope said:
Huge turnout for an off-year election. I'm not happy about the results of question #1, but the turnout makes me proud. :mrgreen:
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Bigotry brings votes. Yeah that's awesome. :doh
 
LiveUninhibited said:
Bigotry brings votes. Yeah that's awesome. :doh
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The turnout is awesome, I wouldn't be surprised if it was one of the highest in the country. Bigotry isn't, of course.
 
LaMidRighter said:
I think you are right, Maine is one of the more transparent states out there and the voters seem to want the whole truth and a little respect, certain locales are like that and tricky when certain items come up, so I suspect that is the case here, as Maine seems to lean socially liberal.
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I think question 1 tells us that Maine does not lean socially liberal.

They say there are 2 Maines: Greater Portland and the rest. I agree with that, but I actually think there are a lot more.
 
Goobieman said:
Sure.
The issue I took was his claim that marriage is a right.
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That's fine, just saying they do have a moral, logical and legal basis without having to claim marriage is a right - even though yours is a semantics argument because it indirectly becomes a right due to the need for equal protection with respect to the law. People have the right to be treated equally under the law, marriage is under the domain of the law, therefore marriage is a right. But I guess it depends on how restrictive you want to be with the term "right."
 
Goobieman said:
Ah! You have yet -another- chance to counter this argument:

Marriage is a legal status created by the state, and, as such, is necessarily a privilege conferred by the state, not a right.

Dont worry -- I have no doubt that you will continue to dodge this argument.
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Fine take it up with SCOTUS and get Loving vs Virginia overturned.....YAWN
 
LiveUninhibited said:
Bigotry brings votes. Yeah that's awesome. :doh
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It's not necessarly bigotry. We do not have a large G/L population here. Mostly people are here to either raise families or retire. Traditional marriage is a cornerstone of this state.

I'm not saying I agree with the repeal. I'm saying you have to consider the population.
 
LiveUninhibited said:
That's fine, just saying they do have a moral, logical and legal basis without having to claim marriage is a right - even though yours is a semantics argument because it indirectly becomes a right due to the need for equal protection with respect to the law.
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Equal protection applies to rights -and- privileges, necessarily indicating a recognition that rights and privileges are distinct and seperate classifications.

People have the right to be treated equally under the law, marriage is under the domain of the law, therefore marriage is a right.
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Non-sequitur -- see above.
Equal protection, not marrige, is the right in question here.
 
StandUpChuck said:
I think question 1 tells us that Maine does not lean socially liberal.

They say there are 2 Maines: Greater Portland and the rest. I agree with that, but I actually think there are a lot more.
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I think they are more libertarian to be honest, but was just kind of going for the easy explanation. My whole thing is the responses from our Mainers here kind of remind me of what I would do if something of this magnitude was just thrown into my lap. Whether or not I agree with gay marriage(I do, as long as the church is given the option to perform said ceremony, as with any individual couple) I would have voted no if I was caught unprepared intentionally as well, I'm kind of a rebel like that.
 
PeteEU said:
I just dont get it to be honest.

On one hand the US prides it self on freedom, liberty, equal rights and so on, and with the other hand it denies the very same thing to a minority of its population...

I guess soon we will see segregation laws proposed again in some states..
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What history book have you been reading?

US freedom has only expanded with the use of force or by congressional or presidential decree.

Very rarely do our citizens vote in equality unless it benefits them directly.

Examples: slavery, racial discrimination, womans suffrage.
 
LaMidRighter said:
I think they are more libertarian to be honest, but was just kind of going for the easy explanation. My whole thing is the responses from our Mainers here kind of remind me of what I would do if something of this magnitude was just thrown into my lap. Whether or not I agree with gay marriage(I do, as long as the church is given the option to perform said ceremony, as with any individual couple) I would have voted no if I was caught unprepared intentionally as well, I'm kind of a rebel like that.
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We are a strange population here. There are country people and city people. There are ocean people, and there are lake people. There are the extremely rich in the gated, ocean side communities, and there are the lobstermen in the deep water ocean communities. Then there are the true artists and nature lovers, but there are the artists and nature lovers who destroy the environment. You could live in 20 different towns in this state, and you will have 20 completely different Maine experiences. We can't agree on anything. :lol:
 
winston53660 said:
1. Ill wait fot the SCOTUS to rule.

2. NP said sue the goverment and I pointed out people had and won.
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SCOTUS hasn't ruled yet though. And people have not sued the government and won over same sex marriage have they?

Aps said:
Yes. That is a valid statement. According to that court.
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Since that's the only court to rule on same sex marriage, it's all we have to go on for now isn't it?
 
StandUpChuck said:
I think question 1 tells us that Maine does not lean socially liberal.

They say there are 2 Maines: Greater Portland and the rest. I agree with that, but I actually think there are a lot more.
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Nate Silver points out the Portland/rest of the state divide, too:

Maine -- Question 1. Maine votes Yes on Question 1 -- which means no on gay marriage -- by a margin of about 52-48. Turnout was extremely high and should eventually surpass 500,000 voters, about where it was during the 2006 midterms. This fact was initially thought to favor the pro-gay marriage side -- but, obviously, it didn't. The results showed a very strong urban-rural divide, with the initiative being rejected by a margin of about 2:1 in Portland but racking up big margins in smaller towns and rural areas, especially in the north of the state.

FiveThirtyEight: Politics Done Right: What Happened and Why?
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How many Maines are there? Seems like there's the NH conclave west of Sanford, etc, little Mass down in York, Ogunquit, 'the County' (hi Tumbles! :2wave:), Downeast (hi Cassandra! :2wave:), not sure what else?

Biddeford, L/A, seem different. Western, but not Southern, Maine seems different. Bath/Brunswick ...



edit: never mind! You just answered it a couple posts above ...
 
StandUpChuck said:
We are a strange population here. There are country people and city people. There are ocean people, and there are lake people. There are the extremely rich in the gated, ocean side communities, and there are the lobstermen in the deep water ocean communities. Then there are the true artists and nature lovers, but there are the artists and nature lovers who destroy the environment. You could live in 20 different towns in this state, and you will have 20 completely different Maine experiences. We can't agree on anything. :lol:
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Sounds like Louisiana! :rofl
 
I keep trying to thank you Jack, but the button keeps disapearing. Don't forget the devil worshippers in Shapleigh! :shock:
 
StandUpChuck said:
I keep trying to thank you Jack, but the button keeps disapearing. Don't forget the devil worshippers in Shapleigh! :shock:
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Really!? needa google.... :lol:
 
I think Koymir made an excellent point. 48% of Maine's citizens support gay marriage. That is not too far from the percentages of people who initially supported women voting or blacks having equal rights. If anything it's a step forward and should be taken as a sign of a dying majority. I say we give it 5-10 years tops before Northern states start legalizing gay marriage.
 
StandUpChuck said:
It's not necessarly bigotry. We do not have a large G/L population here. Mostly people are here to either raise families or retire. Traditional marriage is a cornerstone of this state.

I'm not saying I agree with the repeal. I'm saying you have to consider the population.
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It would still be bigotry if there were zero gays in the state, much like laws against anti-miscegenation would still be bigotry even if zero blacks wanted to marry zero whites.

Appeal to tradition is fallacy. Tradition has no logical value in itself. The majority does not have the right to deny the rights (or arbitrarily deny the privileges:roll:) of a minority, even if it were a hypothetical minority, though in this case it is not.
 
LiveUninhibited said:
It seems extremely obvious to me that society has no real reason to deny gay marriage, certainly there is even less ground to argue against gay marriage than there was against miscegenation, as no kids can be directly produced.
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The fact that no children can be directly produce is itself one possible argument why the State shouldn't recognize such unions. They would be subsidizing through tax incentives relationships which do not serve at least one of the functions for which marriages are subsidized.

On the other side of the coin, just because the children are not produced within the marriage does not mean that they are not raised within the marriage, and that is by far the most important part of the process. Now, science may tell us that children raised by homosexuals do just as well as children raised by their heterosexual counterparts, but if someone rejected those findings or wanted to hold out for further study, such would also (somewhat paradoxically) present legitimate cause to deny homosexual marriage.

I actually have no problem with allowing blood siblings to marry as long as they have no affinity-- they were raised as unrelated by different families-- because the risk for birth defects in sibling pairings is no higher than that caused by the mother being over the age of forty at birth. On the other hand, I don't think first or second cousins by affinity should be allowed to marry regardless of their relatively safe degree of consanguinity because marriage is, among other things, the establishment of affinity between two separate families.
 
Hatuey said:
I think Koymir made an excellent point. 48% of Maine's citizens support gay marriage. That is not too far from the percentages of people who initially supported women voting or blacks having equal rights. If anything it's a step forward and should be taken as a sign of a dying majority. I say we give it 5-10 years tops before Northern states start legalizing gay marriage.
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Nope it won't happen I take it you don't understand us Mainers get out of Portland and Lewiston-Auburn and your dealing with allot of Indep. and rep. look outside of the few folks from maine who have posted onhere most of you have no understanding the dynamics of us Mainers..
 
Scorpion89 said:
Nope it won't happen I take it you don't understand us Mainers get out of Portland and Lewiston-Auburn and your dealing with allot of Indep. and rep. look outside of the few folks from maine who have posted onhere most of you have no understanding the dynamics of us Mainers..
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Yes. It won't happen. I remember George Wallace saying something along those lines a few decades ago. Look at what happened to that. The difference between you and I is that I see 48% as a good thing. You only see your slim win as something to brag about because you live there. Remember. A majority is only a majority for so long.
 
LiveUninhibited said:
It would still be bigotry if there were zero gays in the state, much like laws against anti-miscegenation would still be bigotry even if zero blacks wanted to marry zero whites.

Appeal to tradition is fallacy. Tradition has no logical value in itself. The majority does not have the right to deny the rights (or arbitrarily deny the privileges:roll:) of a minority, even if it were a hypothetical minority, though in this case it is not.
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No it's not you have no idea what your talking abouit.

So folks here you go please show me where in the U Const. or Bil of Rights or any US Code that say anyone has the right to be married to who every they want to. I'll be waiting for this.
 
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