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Thread: Maine voters repeal gay-marriage law

  1. #861
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    Re: Maine voters repeal gay-marriage law

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmer View Post
    I have asked this question (below) but haven't received an answer, and I understand why. Perhaps you will be the first.

    Where do you draw the line?
    Same place I draw the line on all social issues. Does it harm anybody against their consent?

    Sisters marrying each other? Brothers marrying each other? Father and daughter? Father and son? Mother an daughter? Mother and son? Uncle and nephew? Aunt and niece? Aunt and nephew? ...

    If they love each other, why not?

    Where do you draw the line?
    Though I would personally find it strange, I would have no problem at all with sisters marrying each other. A brother and sister is stickier because of the risk to offspring. If they were infertile or it was okay to abort then maybe. But then what if they, for some sick reason, actually wanted to bring disabled children into the world? Of course we already have this problem with non-related parents who refuse to abort fetuses with hydranencephaly and the like. So effectively it's an issue that is not specific to related persons and can be neutralized given additional conditions, such as the acceptability of abortion.

    The additional problem with father and daughter is that there's a high chance there is an exploitative relationship at play. I would have to say that I would allow it if the daughter was an adult and was not dependent upon the father for material support, but there would be reasonable suspicion for abuse and they would have to be willing to speak to mental health professionals to ensure abuse is not taking place.

    The line has been drawn for thousands of years, and it's obvious why.

    So, where is the "New Line" and why?

    Anyone?

    .
    I think you need to brush up on your history and/or anthropology. The line has not been in the same place for thousands of years and it has not been the same between cultures. It used to be considered wrong for Blacks to marry Whites. It used to be unacceptable for peasants to marry nobles. And many cultures have sanctioned homosexuality in history.

    What is a relatively new phenomenon in OUR culture is marriage for love. Marriage really did used to be about property (which often included the wife) and inheritance for the children that aren't bastards. Traditional marriage is hardly something to be proud of, but I can understand why it was that way. Women in particular did not have the luxury to choose based upon love as they were forced to be dependent. Anyway I'm drifting off-topic a bit:

    While not unique to it, anti-homosexuality is largely a tradition of religions descended from Moses, which through genocide and dedicated missionaries came to be dominant religions. But it was just one of many rules, some arbitrary and some not, that Moses and his kind pulled out of their asses.
    Last edited by LiveUninhibited; 11-10-09 at 08:22 AM.

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    Re: Maine voters repeal gay-marriage law

    Quote Originally Posted by tumbleweed View Post
    Some of the Maine voters who rejected same sex marriage had what I consider to be a legitimate argument against it. They rejected it based on what they felt was their parental right to reject same sex marriage being taught to their children in Maine schools. For those voters it had nothing to do with religion, which very well could have been the voting block that ended up influencing the outcome as much as the religious groups.

    Voters who rejected same sex marriage based on their parental rights is a legitimate reason to say no. IMO.
    Last I knew marriage wasn't taught in schools period. Much less gay marriage.
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    Re: Maine voters repeal gay-marriage law

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmer View Post
    They have tried already... not normal marriage, but gay marriage. Heather has two Mommies was being shoved on some primary school kids some 20-years ago.

    Kids that could barely count. Hell, with the state of our education system, that could include teenagers.

    .
    Oh god that was a book that wasn't even written for the schools. But like many other books it ended up in the library. You know...where books are suppose to be found?

    Talk about being blown out of proportion.
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    Re: Maine voters repeal gay-marriage law

    Quote Originally Posted by disneydude View Post
    I didn't say your arguments were not legitimate. Quite the opposite. I said that there are no legitimate arguments against gay marriage that are not based on religion. I think that people who are against gay marriage for religious reason have plenty of legitimate reasons that fit within their own religious and moral views.
    I haven't seen a single legitimate argument, however, that is not based on religion.
    There is one argument which I have heard that doesn't rely on religion. And that's biology. I'd explain it but I think I know someone that can explain it better for ya. I'll see if I can't get him to post here in this thread.
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    Re: Maine voters repeal gay-marriage law

    Quote Originally Posted by aps View Post
    And this is supposed to change people's minds? Give me a break. Way back when, when interracial marriage was not accepted, would you have been okay with being told, "If you want to permanently commit to someone other than a black woman, you won't be able to get married." I"m sure that would have been fine with you.
    Again with the race is the same old red herring. This is nothing but fallacy that does not apply.

    This also has nothing to do with charging anyone's mind. How stupid is that?

    Quote Originally Posted by aps View Post
    I don't understand this ridiculousness of, "I don't want marriage to be anything but a man marrying a woman." Why? Why is that? Because somehow it degrades marriage? Nah. Our 50% divorce rate degrades it enough.
    What part of marraige is between one man and one woman and I don't want to see the definition changed are you missing?

    No place did I mention denying Gay's the benefits from the government married couples get. So if they are given civil unions what is the problem? What do you REALLY want?
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

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    Re: Maine voters repeal gay-marriage law

    Quote Originally Posted by LiveUninhibited View Post
    Which makes no sense as immoral people already get married for immoral reasons. I don't believe homosexuality is immoral, but even if I did it would not undermine marriage anymore than it already has been. It should be clear that marriage is a contract between individuals moreso than it is an institution. It is what those within each marriage make of it. If my neighbor married his wife for sex and she married him for money, that would not actually undermine the meaning of my own marriage.
    I do not support immoral people getting married either. So your argument is useless.

    Quote Originally Posted by LiveUninhibited View Post
    Not even remotely? lol... yeah right.
    No, not even remotely.

    Quote Originally Posted by LiveUninhibited View Post
    Both deny people the "privilege" () to marry who they want on the basis that the marriage would be considered sexually deviant and they did not want society to condone sexual deviance by sanctioning sexually deviant marriages. Nearly all of the "arguments" against miscegenation have exact parallels with the arguments against gay marriage. The notion that it would confuse/harm kids. The notion that the traditional and natural forms of marriage must be preserved. It's analogous.
    We are not denying anyone anything. They can marry anyone of the opposite sex they want just like everyone else.

    I will not support the lifestyle. It is wrong just like polygamy etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by LiveUninhibited View Post
    And what if they had suggested that interracial couples can have civil unions and not marriages? Would that have been okay? Why or why not?
    Because it is not a sin, and it is between a man and a woman. Do I have to repeat it again?

    Quote Originally Posted by LiveUninhibited View Post
    Well the closest you have come to explaining why they are not similar is in mentioning that you are for civil unions. So that wasn't a red herring in any way.
    It is a fallacy argument and I have said why.

    Not my fault you do not understand what a fallacy is.

    Quote Originally Posted by LiveUninhibited View Post
    I don't think you understand sin then. If you believe homosexuality is a choice, then allowing gay marriage would make not choosing homosexuality a more meaningful choice, and make abstention from it more virtuous. Forced morality is no morality at all. If I avoid killing people only because I'd probably get caught and go to prison, I am not being moral, I am being indirectly forced to be civil. (Incidentally, the same goes for god. If I avoid killing people only to avoid going to hell, I am not doing it out of morality per se). The optimal function of society is not to enforce morals, but to protect people from each other so that they can freely choose how they want to live their lives, sinful or not outside of harm to others.
    What part of "it is a sin" and "I will not support it" are you missing?

    Quote Originally Posted by LiveUninhibited View Post
    I don't really believe that. Is your belief in certain fairy tales really the only thing holding you back from hurting people? Your fairy tales do, however, provide a nice way to justify bigotry that makes no logical sense, huh?
    Then don't. If you want to remain in the dark about my motives (as if you know me ) or don't believe what I am saying please don't respond to me with your ridicules rant.

    Quote Originally Posted by LiveUninhibited View Post
    Morality has everything to do with logic.
    If that were the case we would not even be having this argument.
    Last edited by Black Dog; 11-10-09 at 10:35 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

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    Re: Maine voters repeal gay-marriage law

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Again with the race is the same old red herring. This is nothing but fallacy that does not apply.

    This also has nothing to do with charging anyone's mind. How stupid is that?



    What part of marraige is between one man and one woman and I don't want to see the definition changed are you missing?

    No place did I mention denying Gay's the benefits from the government married couples get. So if they are given civil unions what is the problem? What do you REALLY want?
    If two hman beings want to commit to each other until death, that should be deemed marriage--no matter the sex of the human beings involved. I want all adult human beings treated equally. It's really quite simple.

    Blackdog, "But I don't want anyone other than a man and a woman to be able to get married." P A T H E T I C

    Call my example stupid. *yawn*

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    Re: Maine voters repeal gay-marriage law

    Quote Originally Posted by aps View Post
    If two hman beings want to commit to each other until death, that should be deemed marriage--no matter the sex of the human beings involved. I want all adult human beings treated equally. It's really quite simple.
    That's fine. I don't agree, live with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by aps View Post
    Blackdog, "But I don't want anyone other than a man and a woman to be able to get married." P A T H E T I C

    Call my example stupid. *yawn*
    OK, it is stupid.

    And here is why...

    You want me to be tolerant, but only when you agree with it.

    Typical lib bvll****.
    Last edited by Black Dog; 11-10-09 at 10:42 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  9. #869
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    Re: Maine voters repeal gay-marriage law

    Quote Originally Posted by aps View Post
    Honestly, disney, why do you give Navy Pride any attention? When was the last time you saw him post something thoughtful on this subject matter? You can become ungay? Come on, disney. You can spend your time here better. Just saying.
    Eh.....because I think that there is still hope for the guy. I can see a glimmer of humanity somewhere amongst the old gruff frame. Downdeep I know that Navy feels differently...he just cannot allow himself to do so because of his long lifetime of being taught otherwise.
    <font size=5><b>Its been several weeks since the Vegas shooting.  Its it still "Too Early" or can we start having the conversation about finally doing something about these mass shootings???​</b></font>

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    Re: Maine voters repeal gay-marriage law

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    What do you REALLY want?
    Equality. Seperate but equal is not equality.
    <font size=5><b>Its been several weeks since the Vegas shooting.  Its it still "Too Early" or can we start having the conversation about finally doing something about these mass shootings???​</b></font>

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