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Thread: 21-gun salute for ship built with 9/11 steel

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    Re: 21-gun salute for ship built with 9/11 steel

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    Well, this is along the lines of what I was thinking. The terrorists wanted a war, they wanted unrest...
    Okay. True.

    ...they wanted the West to shed its peaceful veneer and get down and dirty.
    I think that's the exact opposite of what the terrorists want; General Jack Pershing would win the "war on terror" in a year or so, using tactics that are "down and dirty", but America doesn't use tactics that are down and dirty anymore, in actuality, the Western military powers are relatively neutered.

    The terrorists understand that the West's main weakness is social and political. They know the American people don't have the stomach to win a protracted and difficult war anymore, and they know the media - not a suicide vest - is the most effective weapon in their arsenal. The more the terrorists undermine our ability to strike fiercely, decisively, and justly the closer they will come to victory.

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    Re: 21-gun salute for ship built with 9/11 steel

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    Okay. True.

    I think that's the exact opposite of what the terrorists want; General Jack Pershing would win the "war on terror" in a year or so, using tactics that are "down and dirty", but America doesn't use tactics that are down and dirty anymore, in actuality, the Western military powers are relatively neutered.

    The terrorists understand that the West's main weakness is social and political. They know the American people don't have the stomach to win a protracted and difficult war anymore, and they know the media - not a suicide vest - is the most effective weapon in their arsenal. The more the terrorists undermine our ability to strike fiercely, decisively, and justly the closer they will come to victory.
    I just realized a flaw in this debate.. we don't really "know" what "they" are thinking, whoever "they" are. Non-state actors are who they are, and are difficult to deal with, because we don't really know what they want.

    But for the sake of argument...

    We can speculate that they just wanted to create chaos in the bureaucracy of the West, and I think in that department they have succeeded. Many freedoms have been encroached upon in the name of stopping terrorism, our coffers have been emptied in a protracted conflict, and more people are hating what we represent with each passing day. The true colours of the nature of our governments have been shown.

    And frankly, most of what is happening in the ME is the result of past deeds by the U.S. and the British Empire. The thirst for conquest has bred multi-generational hatred, and the present conflict is stoking that fire.

    You're right that they capitalized on social and political weakness, but it isn't one from the past 5 years. The entanglement in the ME has been 50+ years in the making. We made this monster.

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    Re: 21-gun salute for ship built with 9/11 steel

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    Canadian intelligence has actually thwarted some planned terrorist attacks since 9-11, but not on the scale of the attack on the WTC. It just goes to show that the propaganda about the fundamentalists in the ME who have a thing against the West is just a big one-liner. If that were true, most Western nations would have been attacked by now.
    The reason they aren't concerned with Canada right now is because they're too busy trying to destroy America. They're fighting us all over the globe. We have hundreds of thousands of troops in the field. They're kind of busy at the moment.

    Ultimately, they see no difference between an American and a Canadian; we're all infidels whose head they would gladly cut off.

    When NYC was attacked, Toronto was on full alert. I remember because people there were freaking out... but nothing ever came, not even to this day.
    If America suddenly withdraws its military presence from across the globe the terrorists will follow us back to our borders. Do you really think Islamo-Nazis see a future with Canadians in it?
    Last edited by Ethereal; 11-03-09 at 12:58 AM.

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    Re: 21-gun salute for ship built with 9/11 steel

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    Given the two useless wars being fought right now, the dollars and lives lost doing it, and the political strife in the aftermath, I find it incredibly ironic and twisted that the steel from the fallen towers was used to make another apparatus of war.

    It doesn't honor them. It disgraces them.
    Wow and here I thought you were honoring those who give you the right to come here and talk ****.

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    Re: 21-gun salute for ship built with 9/11 steel

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    I just realized a flaw in this debate.. we don't really "know" what "they" are thinking, whoever "they" are. Non-state actors are who they are, and are difficult to deal with, because we don't really know what they want.
    Warfare isn't about certainty. It's about identifying the strengths and weaknesses of both yourself and your enemy.

    The West's critical weakness is social and political. The terrorists KNOW this, therefore they will attempt to exploit it. They are cunning and ruthless. Underestimating them would be a fatal mistake.

    But for the sake of argument...

    We can speculate that they just wanted to create chaos in the bureaucracy of the West, and I think in that department they have succeeded. Many freedoms have been encroached upon in the name of stopping terrorism...
    I believe this is true to some extent, but not as much as some would like to suggest.

    Our country has always been quick and loose with the Constitution; I'm not saying that's right but if I HAVE to sacrifice a liberty for some reason I suppose military reasons are the best.

    ...our coffers have been emptied in a protracted conflict...
    Our financial problems have nothing to do with wars.

    ...and more people are hating what we represent with each passing day.
    What? Like Europe? Oh well. America should look to its own interests first, just as every other country in the world does.

    The fanatic Arabs? They've always hated us; nothing new there.

    Moderate Muslims? They're too wimpy to fight either America or the terrorists.

    And frankly, most of what is happening in the ME is the result of past deeds by the U.S. and the British Empire. The thirst for conquest has bred multi-generational hatred, and the present conflict is stoking that fire.
    What specifically are you referring to?

    You're right that they capitalized on social and political weakness, but it isn't one from the past 5 years. The entanglement in the ME has been 50+ years in the making. We made this monster.
    The West had nothing to do with Islamic radicalization. Yes, there is some blowback weíre dealing with now but I donít think thatís a sufficient justification ANYMORE for withdrawing globally.

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    Re: 21-gun salute for ship built with 9/11 steel

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    The reason they aren't concerned with Canada right now is because they're too busy trying to destroy America. They're fighting us all over the globe. We have hundreds of thousands of troops in the field. They're kind of busy at the moment.

    Ultimately, they see no difference between an American and a Canadian; we're all infidels whose head they would gladly cut off.
    I don't think it's that simple. The terrorism we've seen against Western nations, such as the bombings in the EU since the original 9-11 attacks, were organized by separate individuals, largely. Theoretically, anyone sympathetic to the cause who is radical enough could make an attack in any country without instruction. So again, the idea of "they" is misleading. There is no "they", there are only individuals taking up arms. Of course, active terrorist cells are the exception to this.

    Aside from the FLQ crisis, Canada has no modern history of suffering terrorist attacks or even the threat thereof. I think the idea that "the terrorists" (again, nameless and numberless) see no difference between Canada and the U.S. is a blanket statement. It depends on who we are dealing with, their motives, etc. For example, the terrorists busted in Canada had no relation to Al Quaeda.

    Terrorism has always existed... but the recent attacks are in relation to U.S. historical foreign policy in the ME. Canada has no tie to that, and thus there have been no official attacks in relation to that. In effect, the U.S. is dealing with its own foreign policy disaster. Global terrorism in the vague sense will continue to remain what it has always been and will be dealt with on a case by case basis. I realize the media now has a tendency to connect all acts of violence with terrorism, but that's their usual sensationalist agenda for ratings and in reality terrorism takes place for a huge variety of reasons.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    If America suddenly withdraws its military presence from across the globe the terrorists will follow us back to our borders. Do you really think Islamo-Nazis see a future with Canadians in it?
    Note the bold: your borders. Exactly that. Their vendetta is for the U.S., not Canada. They want blood and it's not Canadian blood. It's why I'm glad Canada didn't join the Iraqi invasion... it has nothing to do with us. We went into Afghanistan to support an ally and that's about it.

    As for your question... I have no idea. Depends on which Islamo-Nazi you're talking about. I think the risk to Canada is low, and I think the probability of a future large scale attack on the U.S. is also low, though present.

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    Re: 21-gun salute for ship built with 9/11 steel

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Wow and here I thought you were honoring those who give you the right to come here and talk ****.
    The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan have nothing to do with my freedoms in Canada as declared under the Commonwealth.

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    Re: 21-gun salute for ship built with 9/11 steel

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    Yea, who needs modern fighter jets? Those things are so stupid.

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    Re: 21-gun salute for ship built with 9/11 steel

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    I don't think it's that simple. The terrorism we've seen against Western nations, such as the bombings in the EU since the original 9-11 attacks, were organized by separate individuals, largely. Theoretically, anyone sympathetic to the cause who is radical enough could make an attack in any country without instruction. So again, the idea of "they" is misleading. There is no "they", there are only individuals taking up arms. Of course, active terrorist cells are the exception to this.
    I agree with the isolated nature of certain terrorists and potential terrorist action but I vehemently disagree that there is no "they". There is a vast social, political, and religious core that hates America and wants to see it destroyed or severely weakened; namely the Arab aristocracy, Iran and its proxies, and AQ.

    Aside from the FLQ crisis, Canada has no modern history of suffering terrorist attacks or even the threat thereof. I think the idea that "the terrorists" (again, nameless and numberless) see no difference between Canada and the U.S. is a blanket statement. It depends on who we are dealing with, their motives, etc. For example, the terrorists busted in Canada had no relation to Al Qaeda.

    Terrorism has always existed... but the recent attacks are in relation to U.S. historical foreign policy in the ME. Canada has no tie to that, and thus there have been no official attacks in relation to that. In effect, the U.S. is dealing with its own foreign policy disaster. Global terrorism in the vague sense will continue to remain what it has always been and will be dealt with on a case by case basis. I realize the media now has a tendency to connect all acts of violence with terrorism, but that's their usual sensationalist agenda for ratings and in reality terrorism takes place for a huge variety of reasons.
    Hindsight can be useful but I'm not sure that it really solves anything. Yea, America made some bad foreign policy decisions and is experiencing blowback effects, but I think people tend to exaggerate our role in this while overlooking the massive role Europe's imperialism played in it.

    Anyway, America's enemies aren't going to just leave us alone anymore. What's done is done. So, if you want to wash your hands of America and let us "pay" for mistakes that were made before I was born then that's your prerogative. Just don't assume that they'll leave you guys alone while they're trying to infiltrate and destroy the United States.

    Note the bold: your borders. Exactly that. Their vendetta is for the U.S., not Canada. They want blood and it's not Canadian blood. It's why I'm glad Canada didn't join the Iraqi invasion... it has nothing to do with us. We went into Afghanistan to support an ally and that's about it.
    I didn't ask for this war. It was handed to me. America can't just walk away from this anymore. And since you readily admit that it will be OUR borders they return to we have absolutely no incentive to assume a defensive military posture. I'd rather stay in Iraq for the next thousand years than increase the likelihood of a serious attack on American soil.

    As for your question... I have no idea. Depends on which Islamo-Nazi you're talking about. I think the risk to Canada is low, and I think the probability of a future large scale attack on the U.S. is also low, though present.
    Taliban / AQ types who want to institute the Caliphate. They have no tolerance for Western culture or people. The reason they concentrate on America NOW is because we're the biggest threat to their ultimate vision; a vision which doesn't involve Canada or liberalism.
    Last edited by Ethereal; 11-03-09 at 02:11 AM.

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    Re: 21-gun salute for ship built with 9/11 steel

    Quote Originally Posted by Middleground View Post
    I'm trying hard to remember when Canada needed protection, and listed the aid of American Military forces. Can you think of any, Orius?

    Weren't you all invaded by the danish a couple years ago?
    Last edited by ReverendHellh0und; 11-03-09 at 08:46 AM.
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