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Iran Rejects Deal to Ship Out Uranium, Officials Report

Re: Iran rejects diplomacy: its time for war

It is unconstitutional. The fact that it's been violated before does not change that fact.

It's not unconstitutional. The Constitution specifically states that Congress has the power to maintain a standing Army. Part of maintaining an army is manning that army. Therefore, conscription isn't un-Constitutional.



I've now heard one Democratic congressman suggest a draft. Are there any others? Did Barack Obama support this, as the previous post implied?

You asked, "who said that crap during Bush's term?". I answered your question. Stop crawfishing.


More importantly, is anyone here seriously proposing a draft as a solution for our stretched military commitments, or is this simply partisan trolling?

Nobody said that anyone is proposing a draft.

The only thing J-mac said, was that it was Liberals that recently recommended a draft, which is true. Earnest Hollings pushed an identical bill in the Senate.
 
Re: Iran rejects diplomacy: its time for war

It is unconstitutional. The fact that it's been violated before does not change that fact.

Article 1, Section 8, Clause 12 is what makes it constitutional.

To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

Also the courts have stated that the 13th amendment never had the intention of getting rid of the draft.

There has also been some question raised about the draft in regards to the 13th Amendment. Surely the draft, for at least some, constitutes involuntary servitude, prohibited by the 13th. The only exception the 13th contemplates for slavery or involuntary servitude is as a punishment for a duly convicted crime. However, the courts have ruled that the intent of the 13th was never to abolish the draft, and that serving in the military, even against your will, is not involuntary servitude. These "duties owed to the government" are exempted from 13th Amendment protection. In Butler v Perry (240 US 328 [1916]), the Supreme Court wrote:

[The 13th Amendment] introduced no novel doctrine with respect of services always treated as exceptional, and certainly was not intended to interdict enforcement of those duties which individuals owe to the state, such as services in the army, militia, on the jury, etc. The great purpose in view was liberty under the protection of effective government, not the destruction of the latter by depriving it of essential powers.

Butler did not directly concern the draft. It addressed laws that required able-bodied men to work on state roads for their maintenance when called by the state. However, its implications for the draft are clear and a case decided just two years later (Arver v US [245 US 366 {1918}]) set it in stone:

[A]s we are unable to conceive upon what theory the exaction by government from the citizen of the performance of his supreme and noble duty of contributing to the defense of the rights and honor of the nation as the result of a war declared by the great representative body of the people can be said to be the imposition of involuntary servitude in violation of the prohibitions of the Thirteenth Amendment, we are constrained to the conclusion that the contention to that effect is refuted by its mere statement.

link

FindLaw.com - Arver vs US
 
Re: Iran rejects diplomacy: its time for war

It's not unconstitutional. The Constitution specifically states that Congress has the power to maintain a standing Army. Part of maintaining an army is manning that army. Therefore, conscription isn't un-Constitutional.

That's some odd reasoning. Does the government have the power to draft you to serve in the US Postal Service or the IRS by the same logic?

apdst said:
You asked, "who said that crap during Bush's term?". I answered your question.

Yep, you did. Now with Rangel and this Hollings guy, I'm aware of two congressmen who supported it. Which leads me back to the original question: Does a draft have widespread support amongst congressional Democrats? And does it have Barack Obama's support, as was implied in the original statement to which I replied? :confused:

apdst said:
Nobody said that anyone is proposing a draft.

The only thing J-mac said, was that it was Liberals that recently recommended a draft, which is true. Earnest Hollings pushed an identical bill in the Senate.

If no one here is seriously suggesting a return to the draft, then this has nothing to do with the subject of this thread and is just idiotic partisan hackery.
 
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Re: Iran rejects diplomacy: its time for war

That's some odd reasoning. Does the government have the power to draft you to serve in the US Postal Service or the IRS by the same logic?

No. The draft can only be used for the military.

Yep, you did. Now with Rangel and this Hollings guy, I'm aware of two congressmen who supported it. Which leads me back to the original question: Does a draft have widespread support amongst congressional Democrats? And does it have Barack Obama's support, as was implied in the original statement to which I replied? :confused:

This was already provided this a few posts back. Post #68.

If no one here is seriously suggesting a return to the draft, then this has nothing to do with the subject of this thread and is just idiotic partisan hackery.

The thread has evolved to this point partially because of you. No harm in debating a topic that leads to another in the same thread. At least I see nothing wrong with it so long as at least a few pages have been done already.
 
Re: Iran rejects diplomacy: its time for war

Well if Rathi is right in thinking that these strikes will only set program back a few years then are these strikes going to get us anywhere? In a few years time the Iranians will just be in the same possition as before except that if they wherent developing a weapons program before they will have more legitimacy in doing so.

It will have set them back and hopefully buy us time for regime change. They are developing weapons that is the ONLY possible explanation of why they won't accept the Russian offer to refine their uranium, and why they are still working on the delivery system.
 
Re: Iran rejects diplomacy: its time for war

No. The draft can only be used for the military.

Where do you see that in the Constitution?

Kal'Stang said:
This was already provided this a few posts back. Post #68.

And I already replied to it in the very next post.

Kal'Stang said:
The thread has evolved to this point partially because of you. No harm in debating a topic that leads to another in the same thread. At least I see nothing wrong with it so long as at least a few pages have been done already.

Getting back on subject...

Those of you who are beating the war drums with Iran - while ALSO bitching about not sending enough troops to Afghanistan, and ALSO bitching that we're drawing down our troops in Iraq - Where do you propose all these extra troops come from? And don't say the draft unless that is seriously what you support (as opposed to stupidass partisan "ZOMG TEH LIBRUHLS WANT A DRAFT LULZ").

I think most of you guys simply do not understand the concept of finite military power. The United States is not omnipotent.
 
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Re: Iran rejects diplomacy: its time for war

That's some odd reasoning. Does the government have the power to draft you to serve in the US Postal Service or the IRS by the same logic?

Has the postal service ever been undermanned during a period of national crisis?



Yep, you did. Now with Rangel and this Hollings guy, I'm aware of two congressmen who supported it. Which leads me back to the original question: Does a draft have widespread support amongst congressional Democrats? And does it have Barack Obama's support, as was implied in the original statement to which I replied? :confused:

You said that no one ever supported a draft during Bush's two terms. It's irrelevant if it was supported by two Congress critters, or two hundred.



If no one here is seriously suggesting a return to the draft, then this has nothing to do with the subject of this thread and is just idiotic partisan hackery.

You're the one that got this cranked up. You can go ahead and concede that you're wrong and we can move on.
 
Re: Iran rejects diplomacy: its time for war

Those of you who are beating the war drums with Iran - while ALSO bitching about not sending enough troops to Afghanistan, and ALSO bitching that we're drawing down our troops in Iraq - Where do you propose all these extra troops come from? And don't say the draft unless that is seriously what you support (as opposed to stupidass partisan "ZOMG TEH LIBRUHLS WANT A DRAFT LULZ").

I think most of you guys simply do not understand the concept of finite military power. The United States is not omnipotent.

How about responding to my post that addresses your question? (post #75)

Again, you either mis-read my post, or ignore it. I guess like most "libruhls" facts are of no interest to you.
 
Re: Iran rejects diplomacy: its time for war

Where do you see that in the Constitution?

Article 1, Section 8, Clause 12 is not about the IRS or Postal Service. It is about the military.

And I already replied to it in the very next post.

He was talking about shared sacrifice, not everyone literally going to war. Do you actually believe he was talking about sending every person in America into a war zone? :roll:

US Presidential candidate Barack Hussein Obama said on September 13th that his job as president would include demanding that the American people recognize an “obligation” for military service. “If we are going into war, then all of us go, not just some,” Obama declared at an evening forum on national service at Columbia University in New York City.

If he thinks this do you really think that he wouldn't call a draft? It is obvious to me from this statement that he would have no problem with it. At least Bush said that he would never institute a draft.

Now then, are you actually advocating re-instituting the draft? Or are you just trolling like the partisan hack you are?

Just because I do not (and would never) advocate re-instuting the draft does not mean that I can't show you were you are wrong in stating that the Draft is illegal and other areas where you are wrong. Indeed I was just showing the facts and really had nothing to do with either party. So if stating facts is "trolling" and being a "partisan hack" then I am guilty. Sorry you don't like little things like facts being thrown at ya.

Getting back on subject...

Those of you who are beating the war drums with Iran - while ALSO bitching about not sending enough troops to Afghanistan, and ALSO bitching that we're drawing down our troops in Iraq - Where do you propose all these extra troops come from? And don't say the draft unless that is seriously what you support (as opposed to stupidass partisan "ZOMG TEH LIBRUHLS WANT A DRAFT LULZ").

I think most of you guys simply do not understand the concept of finite military power. The United States is not omnipotent.

You forget or do not realize that I would have no problem throwing a few nukes towards them. (I've stated it before in other threads) You do not need nothing but the nukes so would take very little resources on our part to get rid of Iran. Not one of our troops would have to die in Iran. Not a single bullet, suv, food or any other type of supply would have to be wasted in Iran.

While the US may not be omnipotent we are definately a hell of a lot stronger than Iran.
 
Re: Iran rejects diplomacy: its time for war

Has the postal service ever been undermanned during a period of national crisis?

What does that have to do with whether or not it's constitutional?

apdst said:
You said that no one ever supported a draft during Bush's two terms. It's irrelevant if it was supported by two Congress critters, or two hundred.

I said I've never heard of any congressmen supporting it.

apdst said:
You're the one that got this cranked up. You can go ahead and concede that you're wrong and we can move on.

Like I said, I've now heard of two congressmen who have supported this. I'm still waiting to hear: A) If this is the consensus among congressional Democrats, B) If Barack Obama supports this, and C) If you are seriously suggesting a draft as a way to improve our military, or just trolling.
 
Re: Iran rejects diplomacy: its time for war

Since iran is de-stabilizing israel, iraq, lebanon, and is known to have terrorist cells inside qatar and other gulf states, is completely rejectionist with respect to an israeli-arab peace process, uses terrorism as a political method and murder as an internal one, and is working on illegal nuclear weapons, then yes, it is safe to say that removing that fascist dictatorship would solve many middle east problems literally overnight.

Except that you completely ignore the actual problems of the Middle.

Let's address your first post. Iran cannot destabilize Israel more than Israeli politicians are doing without nuclear weapons. And while Iran is acting upon its interests in the other countries, your definition would classify a large number of countries around the world as destabilizing other countries. Every country in history has used terrorism as a political method, not to mention murder.

You ignore the real problems of the Middle East. Getting rid of Iran's government does not fix the Dutch Disease problem which is arguably at the root of the problems of the Modern Middle east. Removing Iran's government does not fix the millennia long cultural problems within the region and within Islam. Removing Iran's government does not fix Pakistan (which arguably is the real problem despite being on the fringe of the ME). Removing Iran's government does not remove the corrupt regimes that are explicitly delaying progress in the Middle East. In many ways, Iran government is more progressive then many other Middle Eastern regimes. The problems of the Middle East transcend Iran by hundreds, if not thousands of years.

As for the other poster's question as to where the troops would come from, i would pull the 40,000 troops stationed in s korea, 60,000 in japan, and 65,000 in germany, and send them into iran. That would be plenty, along with the fact that both the air force and navy are mostly inactive WRT to both the iraq and afghan missions.

1) How would we pay for this
2) How would we maintain this force
3) How would we maintain rotations for this force

165,000 troops was not enough to secure Iraq, which was smaller, easier terrain and far less populated. 400,000 was. Iran's population is far, far, far more then Iraq's with terrain resembling Afghanistan's far more then Iraq's.

Ever hear of a guy named Eric Shinseki? Because you sound like Rummy right now.
 
Re: Iran rejects diplomacy: its time for war

Article 1, Section 8, Clause 12 is not about the IRS or Postal Service. It is about the military.

Take a look at clauses 1 and 7 of the same article and section.

Kal'Stang said:
If he thinks this do you really think that he wouldn't call a draft? It is obvious to me from this statement that he would have no problem with it. At least Bush said that he would never institute a draft.

Yes. There isn't a shadow of doubt in my mind that Obama isn't going to implement the draft. For that matter, there isn't a shadow of doubt about it in YOUR mind either. You know perfectly well it isn't going to happen. :roll:

Kal'Stang said:
Just because I do not (and would never) advocate re-instuting the draft does not mean that I can't show you were you are wrong in stating that the Draft is illegal and other areas where you are wrong.

Then let's get back to the subject at hand before j-mac derailed it with this nonsense about the draft:

For those of you bitching about A) not going to war with Iran, B) not building up our troops in Afghanistan quickly enough, C) withdrawing from Iraq: Where are all these extra troops going to come from?

Kal'Stang said:
Indeed I was just showing the facts and really had nothing to do with either party. So if stating facts is "trolling" and being a "partisan hack" then I am guilty. Sorry you don't like little things like facts being thrown at ya.

The "partisan hack" comment was addressed to j-mac, who IS a partisan hack by any definition of the word.

Kal'Stang said:
You forget or do not realize that I would have no problem throwing a few nukes towards them. (I've stated it before in other threads) You do not need nothing but the nukes so would take very little resources on our part to get rid of Iran. Not one of our troops would have to die in Iran. Not a single bullet, suv, food or any other type of supply would have to be wasted in Iran.

You can either propose a realistic solution or you can use your fantasies of nuclear war as a substitute for actually thinking about the issue. Your choice.

Kal'Stang said:
While the US may not be omnipotent we are definately a hell of a lot stronger than Iran.

That doesn't mean we have an infinite amount of military power to confront Iraq, Iran, and Afghanistan all at the same time. Hell, someone on this thread even suggested starting a war with Libya too. :doh
 
last thing before bed....Look Kandahar, There was never wide consensus on a draft, Rangel knew that, but cynically introduced it anyway every few months during the Bush terms to bring heat for the number of deployments. it was a strategy by the demos to keep throwing everything at him, while trying to make him look inept. So my last question to you tonight, is, If it was good enough to dog Bush with for a couple of years in demos case, then why is it now out of bounds to raise when you ask where we would get the troops to support Dear Leader, Chairman Maobama's war of necessity in Afghanistan?

Partisan hackery? I check Tuesday when I get back off the road.....Cheers.


j-mac
 
Re: Iran rejects diplomacy: its time for war

What does that have to do with whether or not it's constitutional?

If there was a large enough crisis that demanded that the post office not be undermanned, it would constitutional to draft people to work there. But, no one's going to die, if the male doesn't get delivered on time.



I said I've never heard of any congressmen supporting it.

Now, you know that there are a few.



Like I said, I've now heard of two congressmen who have supported this. I'm still waiting to hear: A) If this is the consensus among congressional Democrats, B) If Barack Obama supports this, and C) If you are seriously suggesting a draft as a way to improve our military, or just trolling.

Rangle's bill was voted down by vote of 402 to 2, so there's at least three that support bringing back the draft. If I remember right, it was Dennis Kesinich that supported Rangle's bill, but I could be wrong and I'm not reseraching it, right now.
 
Re: Iran rejects diplomacy: its time for war

Except that you completely ignore the actual problems of the Middle.

Let's address your first post. Iran cannot destabilize Israel more than Israeli politicians are doing without nuclear weapons. And while Iran is acting upon its interests in the other countries, your definition would classify a large number of countries around the world as destabilizing other countries. Every country in history has used terrorism as a political method, not to mention murder.

You ignore the real problems of the Middle East. Getting rid of Iran's government does not fix the Dutch Disease problem which is arguably at the root of the problems of the Modern Middle east. Removing Iran's government does not fix the millennia long cultural problems within the region and within Islam. Removing Iran's government does not fix Pakistan (which arguably is the real problem despite being on the fringe of the ME). Removing Iran's government does not remove the corrupt regimes that are explicitly delaying progress in the Middle East. In many ways, Iran government is more progressive then many other Middle Eastern regimes. The problems of the Middle East transcend Iran by hundreds, if not thousands of years.



1) How would we pay for this
2) How would we maintain this force
3) How would we maintain rotations for this force

165,000 troops was not enough to secure Iraq, which was smaller, easier terrain and far less populated. 400,000 was.
Iran's population is far, far, far more then Iraq's with terrain resembling Afghanistan's far more then Iraq's.

Ever hear of a guy named Eric Shinseki? Because you sound like Rummy right now.

When did we ever have 400,000 troops in Iraq, at one time?
 
Re: Iran rejects diplomacy: its time for war

Thank goodness, a leftist with a brain, this forum has precious few of them, as this thread exhibits by posters arguing that the US constitution prohibits the draft despite being pointed to the precise language in the document that it does...

Except that you completely ignore the actual problems of the Middle.

I lived there for 30 years, that is unlikely.

Let's address your first post. Iran cannot destabilize Israel more than Israeli politicians are doing without nuclear weapons.

I was referring to the endless terroism and suicide bombings israel has endured for decades by iranian poodles such as hezboolah, hamas and islamic jihad.

And while Iran is acting upon its interests in the other countries, your definition would classify a large number of countries around the world as destabilizing other countries. Every country in history has used terrorism as a political method, not to mention murder.

Pursuing interests is one thing, conducting suicide bombings murdering hundreds of people is another.

You ignore the real problems of the Middle East. Getting rid of Iran's government does not fix the Dutch Disease problem which is arguably at the root of the problems of the Modern Middle east.

Spare me, the colonialism ended decades ago, its funny how this pathetic argument has been quietly dropped from excuses for african incompetence and mal-government, the leftist sympathy for arab muslim failings appears bottomless.

Removing Iran's government does not fix the millennia long cultural problems within the region and within Islam.

So are you claiming that islam is not a religion of peace?

I guess this is a fine example of the abject leftist racism against arab muslims, where they cannot be held to the same norms and demands of civil society.

Removing Iran's government does not remove the corrupt regimes that are explicitly delaying progress in the Middle East.

These regimes, while wretched, are not applying terrorism in other nations as a political method.

And why the crocodile tears for un-free regimes, who treat their own citizens so badly, yet no complaints about iran who in the most recent fabricated "elections" murdered and tortured so many of their own people?

In many ways, Iran government is more progressive then many other Middle Eastern regimes.

This statement, while laughable to people like me who lived there, would probably get you killed if said aloud right now if overheard in teheran or ifshahan.

1) How would we pay for this

We already are, these troops are on active duty. You do understand that yes?

2) How would we maintain this force

Do not understand this question, as the divisions already exist.

3) How would we maintain rotations for this force / 165,000 troops was not enough to secure Iraq, which was smaller, easier terrain and far less populated. 400,000 was. Iran's population is far, far, far more then Iraq's with terrain resembling Afghanistan's far more then Iraq's.

The US would be going in to liquidate the regime leadership and its republican guard. This is a much shorter, more narror mission than what was needed - and occurred - in iraq.
 
Re: Iran rejects diplomacy: its time for war

Take a look at clauses 1 and 7 of the same article and section.

Clause 1 has to do with borrowing money. The IRS does not borrow money. It collects taxes. The governemnt borrows money from other countries.

Clause 7 has to do with establishing Post Office's and Postal Roads. While I suppose they could technically I think technically they couldn't also as the draft was originally meant for the military. For the same reason that the 13th Amendment does not apply to the draft, the draft would not apply to clause 7. Not the original intent of what the draft was made for.

Yes. There isn't a shadow of doubt in my mind that Obama isn't going to implement the draft. For that matter, there isn't a shadow of doubt about it in YOUR mind either. You know perfectly well it isn't going to happen. :roll:

Thank you so much for telling me what I am thinking/not thinking. :roll:

Contrary to what you think that I am thinking you are wrong.

Take a look at this video. Ignore the comments made from the person that put this video together and just listen to what Rahm Emanuel and Obama say in it.

Youtube link



Then let's get back to the subject at hand before j-mac derailed it with this nonsense about the draft:

For those of you bitching about A) not going to war with Iran, B) not building up our troops in Afghanistan quickly enough, C) withdrawing from Iraq: Where are all these extra troops going to come from?

Which is what started the draft debate. It is possible that he could. You asked it was answered. Just because we don't agree with that option does not mean that it is still not a valid answer.

The "partisan hack" comment was addressed to j-mac, who IS a partisan hack by any definition of the word.

Then perhaps you shouldn't have put it in a post directed at me?

You can either propose a realistic solution or you can use your fantasies of nuclear war as a substitute for actually thinking about the issue. Your choice.

Whats not realistic about it? Are you trying to say that we don't have the nukes to carry it out? Because as long as we do that makes it quite realistic.

That doesn't mean we have an infinite amount of military power to confront Iraq, Iran, and Afghanistan all at the same time. Hell, someone on this thread even suggested starting a war with Libya too. :doh

Think my suggestion sort of nullifies your question. Along with the Draft answer.
 
Re: Iran rejects diplomacy: its time for war

Thank goodness, a leftist with a brain, this forum has precious few of them

If you consider me a leftists, then you are in the lot with Navy Pride who considers massive government, fiscally liberal policies and world police to be conservative policies. :2wave:

I lived there for 30 years, that is unlikely.

Oh yay. Circumstantial evidence. Want to bet how far that will get you?

I was referring to the endless terroism and suicide bombings israel has endured for decades by iranian poodles such as hezboolah, hamas and islamic jihad.

And look where Israel is now. The most productive country in the Middle East with the exception of Turkey. Granted, much of that was built upon US handouts and welfare, but that's neither here nor there. In fact, the constant threats upon Israel have often acted as a stabilizing force shoving internally damning problems within the country to the backburner. It was often said that giving Israel months of peace could do what no Arab country could do: destroy it by internal schisms.

Pursuing interests is one thing, conducting suicide bombings murdering hundreds of people is another.

So now it's just "hundreds" that count eh? Care to examine the US role in Chile? How about what Venezuela is doing now? Or the clandestine operations of the SAS? Or the numerous historical incidents by countries over the years? You act like countries haven't done this. Unlike you, I can be objective in realizing that terrorism is not a tool limited to Iran.

Spare me, the colonialism ended decades ago, its funny how this pathetic argument has been quietly dropped from excuses for african incompetence and mal-government, the leftist sympathy for arab muslim failings appears bottomless.

I see you completely ignored what I wrote. Can you define "Dutch Disease" for me? Furthermore, explain to me how that removes blame on the government. And I do find it amusing how you implicitly argue I'm not blaming the governments despite me doing just that later in the post. :rofl Not a careful reader are you?

So are you claiming that islam is not a religion of peace?

Depends who's interpretation we're looking at. Some are. Some aren't.

I guess this is a fine example of the abject leftist racism against arab muslims, where they cannot be held to the same norms and demands of civil society.

Based on....what? Your inability to argue without labeling people in the hopes that that will somehow free you from providing an intellectual reply? You're going to get hammered here if that is all you have in your debate skill locker.

These regimes, while wretched, are not applying terrorism in other nations as a political method.

As a political method? So apparently terrorism is only terrorism when it's political. And you are wrong. Syria exports its radicals as a way of reducing political threats to the Druze Assad Regime.

And why the crocodile tears for un-free regimes, who treat their own citizens so badly, yet no complaints about iran who in the most recent fabricated "elections" murdered and tortured so many of their own people?

Generally, it helps to read the prior posts of people before making such accusations. Please research those threads before first assuming I never said anything on them. You clearly assume much to plug the gaps in your inability to debate, and it's painfully obvious. And you are off tangent. While those regimes are scum as is the Theocracy in Iran, this is a discussion about your claim that removing the Iranian regime would fix the ME's problems. As my point still stands, removing Iran's regime does not remove the others which are part of the problem thereby rendering your assertion false.

I realize you likely came from a board which did not challenge you and therefore let whatever skills you had at the time stagnate and decay to nothing. You should realize that without a Rocky like training regime, you will be crushed here.

This statement, while laughable to people like me who lived there, would probably get you killed if said aloud right now if overheard in teheran or ifshahan.

Ever heard of a country called "Saudi Arabia?" :rofl

We already are, these troops are on active duty. You do understand that yes?

Wow. I'm not sure what to say to this. First, those troops, while on active duty, are not in combat. Combat operations and peacetime operations are two entirely different concepts. Peacetime doesn't result in huge uses of material. Peacetime doesn't involve in massive medical needs. Peacetime doesn't involve in extreme constant stress on soldiers. Peacetime does not in most ways resemble combat operations.

Do not understand this question, as the divisions already exist.

Tell me, do you think that the materials required to sustain a division in combat and occupation are the same as those to sustain a division that is not actively in combat and undergoing largely training operations in a friendly country? :rofl

The US would be going in to liquidate the regime leadership and its republican guard. This is a much shorter, more narror mission than what was needed - and occurred - in iraq.

Except to do that, we'd need to replace it with something else. And we'd need to hunt down the Republican Guard. Ever seen a topographical map of Iran? Because it sounds like you think it's rolling deserts. Furthermore, you really think that we could just roll in there and not have to worry about the massive population? :rofl

Wow you are Rummy. Wishful thinking on the borderlines of delusions.
 
last thing before bed....Look Kandahar, There was never wide consensus on a draft, Rangel knew that, but cynically introduced it anyway every few months during the Bush terms to bring heat for the number of deployments.

If that's the case, why did you bring it up as a possible solution for where to get the troops necessary for Iraq and Afghanistan, as well as your proposed war in Iran?

j-mac said:
it was a strategy by the demos to keep throwing everything at him, while trying to make him look inept. So my last question to you tonight, is, If it was good enough to dog Bush with for a couple of years in demos case, then why is it now out of bounds to raise when you ask where we would get the troops to support Dear Leader, Chairman Maobama's war of necessity in Afghanistan?

Sounds like a stupid tactic no matter who is doing it. Unless you have a quote where I said "it was good enough to dog Bush with for a couple of years," then it's completely irrelevant to the question I asked - where should these troops come from? Hell, I never even HEARD of Rangel's resolution until about an hour ago.
 
Re: Iran rejects diplomacy: its time for war

Clause 1 has to do with borrowing money. The IRS does not borrow money. It collects taxes. The governemnt borrows money from other countries.

Article 1, Section 8, Clause 1: The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

Kal'Stang said:
Thank you so much for telling me what I am thinking/not thinking. :roll:

Contrary to what you think that I am thinking you are wrong.

Take a look at this video. Ignore the comments made from the person that put this video together and just listen to what Rahm Emanuel and Obama say in it.

Youtube link

Rahm Emanuel talked about "universal service." And I've heard Obama refer to a "civilian security force" before; he isn't talking about a literal security force, he's talking about some kind of national service program. I don't think it should be compulsory either, but it's hardly a draft.

Kal'Stang said:
Which is what started the draft debate. It is possible that he could. You asked it was answered. Just because we don't agree with that option does not mean that it is still not a valid answer.

If you offer up a solution to a question (i.e. Where are all these troops going to come from for a war in Iran), I tend to assume that you actually believe what you say. :roll:

If people aren't going to defend their proposed solutions under scrutiny, then they may as well have not wasted time and suggested the idea in the first place.

Kal'Stang said:
Then perhaps you shouldn't have put it in a post directed at me?

Huh? Post #69, where you got that quote from, was clearly directed at j-mac.

Kal'Stang said:
Whats not realistic about it? Are you trying to say that we don't have the nukes to carry it out? Because as long as we do that makes it quite realistic.

It's not realistic because you know full well that no US president is going to violate our no-first-strike nuclear policy, due to the horrific consequences. So when you suggest something that you know with 99.999% certainty isn't going to happen, what you're really doing is abdicating the responsibility to actually analyze the issue and think critically about how best to handle it.
 
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Re: Iran rejects diplomacy: its time for war

Oh yay. Circumstantial evidence. Want to bet how far that will get you?

It means I have lived there probably longer than you are alive. Speak farsi? I do, and know more about iran than you will ever.

So now it's just "hundreds" that count eh?

Are we really at the level of conversation where we need to post links to how many israeli suicide casualties there have been since 1993?

Care to examine the US role in Chile? How about what Venezuela is doing now? Or the clandestine operations of the SAS? Or the numerous historical incidents by countries over the years? You act like countries haven't done this. Unlike you, I can be objective in realizing that terrorism is not a tool limited to Iran.

When I see the SAS conduct suicide bombings of pizza parlours, paralyzing an entire country, and massive rocket fire to the tune of tens of thousands of katyushas fired THEN your absurd comments might hold some weight.

Not a careful reader are you?

You claimed western colonialism and foreign interference is causing mideast issues, this is garbage. Don't like the facts, don't post a response.

Depends who's interpretation we're looking at. Some are. Some aren't.

Hilarious nonsense, either the religion is peaceful in its interpretation or it isn't.

Based on....what? Your inability to argue without labeling people in the hopes that that will somehow free you from providing an intellectual reply? You're going to get hammered here if that is all you have in your debate skill locker.

The first sign an internet teen is failing in his argument is when he starts issuing threats - and there's strike one against you.

As a political method? So apparently terrorism is only terrorism when it's political. And you are wrong. Syria exports its radicals as a way of reducing political threats to the Druze Assad Regime.

First off, by definition all terrorism is political since it is a means of using violence to send a message/change a political situation.

Second, the Assad regime is alawite, a shia sect, not druze.

You clearly assume much to plug the gaps in your inability to debate, and it's painfully obvious.

Continue the personal attacks, and I will put you on ignore. Clearly I overestimated what I'd hoped would be a thoughtful leftist, and was wrong :roll:

And you are off tangent. While those regimes are scum as is the Theocracy in Iran, this is a discussion about your claim that removing the Iranian regime would fix the ME's problems.

The US removed the Saddam regime in 2003, and in the last 6 years it has issued ZERO threats against its neighbors, conducted zero funding of foreign terrorists, and engaged in zero wars. Sounds like a good job to me.

I realize you likely came from a board which did not challenge you

You attack me for making assumptions about you, then do the same. Are you for real?

Wow. I'm not sure what to say to this. First, those troops, while on active duty, are not in combat...

The points you responded to regarding troop levels were answers to questions posed by a different poster, and not directed to you. I will await his response.
 
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Re: Iran rejects diplomacy: its time for war

Rahm Emanuel talked about "universal service." And I've heard Obama refer to a "civilian security force" before; he isn't talking about a literal security force, he's talking about some kind of national service program. I don't think it should be compulsory either, but it's hardly a draft.

You say toe mato I say ta matto. ;) They want it mandatory. A draft is mandatory (when instituted). It is about serving in a military capacity.

If you offer up a solution to a question (i.e. Where are all these troops going to come from for a war in Iran), I tend to assume that you actually believe what you say. :roll:

Suggestion, don't ever assume anything.

If people aren't going to defend their proposed solutions under scrutiny, then they may as well have not wasted time and suggested the idea in the first place.

The proposed solution was in response to your question. Which as you've stated a few times already...

And where are all these troops going to come from?

A draft would cover it right? Does it really matter weather people actually want the draft or not? It is an answer to your question. You never specified that they have to actually want it when you asked the question originally.

Huh? Post #69, where you got that quote from, was clearly directed at j-mac.

AH I know what happened. I accidently copied that part and didn't realize it when I was copying a part of your post to respond to you. I put it seperate without realizing what I did. I apologize.

It's not realistic because you know full well that no US president is going to violate our no-first-strike nuclear policy, due to the horrific consequences. So when you suggest something that you know with 99.999% certainty isn't going to happen, what you're really doing is abdicating the responsibility to actually analyze the issue and think critically about how best to handle it.

Do you really think that a piece of paper would stop people from launching nuke strikes? And yes I do know that it would not normally be done. Still doesn't mean that it is not an option at all. As your post even suggests since you put 99.999% instead of just saying 100.00%.
 
Re: Iran rejects diplomacy: its time for war

It means I have lived there probably longer than you are alive. Speak farsi? I do, and know more about iran than you will ever.

Sure you do. Just like TD has a finance degree and Apdst has his own "business." :2wave: By the way, I'm the Queen of Sheba.

Are we really at the level of conversation where we need to post links to how many israeli suicide casualties there have been since 1993?

Not at all. You just seem to want to classify the discussion at such a level rather then address the actual issue of usage of terrorism, thus suggesting you are not looking for an honest discussion.

Btw, I noticed you ignored a fairly significant amount of my post.

When I see the SAS conduct suicide bombings of pizza parlours, paralyzing an entire country, and massive rocket fire to the tune of tens of thousands of katyushas fired THEN your absurd comments might hold some weight.

Got it. You only consider what you don't like to be terrorism rather then consider the acts of terror to be terrorism independent of who is doing them to whom. Typical.

You claimed western colonialism and foreign interference is causing mideast issues, this is garbage. Don't like the facts, don't post a response.

Please show me where I did this or you are lying. I noticed you utterly failed to define Dutch Disease. Considering the existence of Google, you may have looked it up and then realized, you were completely wrong in your assertion.

I asked you before how Dutch Disease removes culpability from governments. I noticed you failed to answer.

I can start getting nasty by bolding and coloring every time you fail. So either you start providing intelligent responses, or I'm going to highlight your epic failures.

Hilarious nonsense, either the religion is peaceful in its interpretation or it isn't.

Can you read? Some interpretations are. Some are not. How is that nonsense? Some interpretations of Christianity are peaceful. Some are not. Do you consider that "hilarious nonsense?" Do you consider the pacifists Christians who turn the other cheek to be hilarious compared to the ideology of Pope Urban II who called for Holy War? Some interpretations are peaceful and some are not.

The first sign an internet teen is failing in his argument is when he starts issuing threats - and there's strike one against you.

Merely an observation based on historical precedent. Apdst who thanked you knows this as he's been crushed, diced and pulverized time and time again. Point still remains that your entire argument here has been an attempt (lame one I might add) to label me rather then address my arguments. In fact, you ignored a sizable amount right off the bat.

First off, by definition all terrorism is political since it is a means of using violence to send a message/change a political situation.

Which means Syria counts. Furthermore, you are not privy to the secret actions of various Middle Eastern governments. Do you really think only Iran is using it? And the message does not need to be public to be political.

Continue the personal attacks, and I will put you on ignore. Clearly I overestimated what I'd hoped would be a thoughtful leftist, and was wrong :roll:

lol. Thanks for proving my point. You don't provide an argument, you just attempt to label. And ignore me all you want. Doesn't make your arguments valid or deal with the fact that you ignored a sizable portion of my post.

You can't even define Dutch Disease in the presence of Google. :rofl

The US removed the Saddam regime in 2003, and in the last 6 years it has issued ZERO threats against its neighbors

So the same amount it did before the invasion. Got it.

conducted zero funding of foreign terrorists

That depends if you ask Iran.

and engaged in zero wars. Sounds like a good job to me.

Clearly, the term "civil war" doesn't ring a bell to you.

You attack me for making assumptions about you, then do the same. Are you for real?

Except that your failings are very clear. Remember, virtually your entire argument here is an attempt to label me rather then address my arguments. This is classic sign you came from a very weak board.

The points you responded to regarding troop levels were answers to questions posed by a different poster, and not directed to you. I will await his response.

Doesn't matter. You still made them.

Good luck here. You are going to need it. Badly. In amounts that may not exist in this world.
 
Re: Iran rejects diplomacy: its time for war

Sure you do. Just like TD has a finance degree and Apdst has his own "business." :2wave: By the way, I'm the Queen of Sheba.

Anyone that disagrees with OC is an automatic liar about, everything. Great debating style. Why haven't you been banned yet?
 
Re: Iran rejects diplomacy: its time for war

Sure you do. Just like TD has a finance degree and Apdst has his own "business." :2wave: By the way, I'm the Queen of Sheba.

You know OC when you basically tell a person that they are liars about thier own life all you do is make anything that you say not worth responding to.

Ever.

I'd think about that if I were you.
 
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