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Thread: Iran Rejects Deal to Ship Out Uranium, Officials Report

  1. #71
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    Re: Iran rejects diplomacy: its time for war

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    Are you serious?

    You really think that removing the Iranian government (questionable at best without a ground invasion and occupation) will solve most of the Middle East's problems?

    Way to ignore about 500 years of history.
    More like fourteen-hundred years of history. The ME's problems started the day that Islam showed up on he scene.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Iran rejects diplomacy: its time for war

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    It's not involuntary servitude. It's involuntary service. The difference, draftees would get paid for their service.
    That is what distinguishes involuntary servitude from slavery. Both are illegal.

    Did this have wide support amongst Democratic congressmen? Did Barack Obama (who wasn't even in the Senate at the time) support this?
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    Re: Iran rejects diplomacy: its time for war

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    That is what distinguishes involuntary servitude from slavery. Both are illegal.
    Military conscription isn't illegal.



    Did this have wide support amongst Democratic congressmen? Did Barack Obama (who wasn't even in the Senate at the time) support this?
    You said,
    Huh? I never heard anyone suggest we implement the draft when Bush was president.
    I posted a link that proved that your comment is mistaken.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Iran rejects diplomacy: its time for war

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Military conscription isn't illegal.
    It is unconstitutional. The fact that it's been violated before does not change that fact.

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst
    You said,

    I posted a link that proved that your comment is mistaken.
    I've now heard one Democratic congressman suggest a draft. Are there any others? Did Barack Obama support this, as the previous post implied?


    More importantly, is anyone here seriously proposing a draft as a solution for our stretched military commitments, or is this simply partisan trolling?
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    Re: Iran rejects diplomacy: its time for war

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    Are you serious?

    You really think that removing the Iranian government (questionable at best without a ground invasion and occupation) will solve most of the Middle East's problems?

    Way to ignore about 500 years of history.
    Since iran is de-stabilizing israel, iraq, lebanon, and is known to have terrorist cells inside qatar and other gulf states, is completely rejectionist with respect to an israeli-arab peace process, uses terrorism as a political method and murder as an internal one, and is working on illegal nuclear weapons, then yes, it is safe to say that removing that fascist dictatorship would solve many middle east problems literally overnight.

    As for the other poster's question as to where the troops would come from, i would pull the 40,000 troops stationed in s korea, 60,000 in japan, and 65,000 in germany, and send them into iran. That would be plenty, along with the fact that both the air force and navy are mostly inactive WRT to both the iraq and afghan missions.

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    Re: Iran rejects diplomacy: its time for war

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    It is unconstitutional. The fact that it's been violated before does not change that fact.
    It's not unconstitutional. The Constitution specifically states that Congress has the power to maintain a standing Army. Part of maintaining an army is manning that army. Therefore, conscription isn't un-Constitutional.



    I've now heard one Democratic congressman suggest a draft. Are there any others? Did Barack Obama support this, as the previous post implied?
    You asked, "who said that crap during Bush's term?". I answered your question. Stop crawfishing.


    More importantly, is anyone here seriously proposing a draft as a solution for our stretched military commitments, or is this simply partisan trolling?
    Nobody said that anyone is proposing a draft.

    The only thing J-mac said, was that it was Liberals that recently recommended a draft, which is true. Earnest Hollings pushed an identical bill in the Senate.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Iran rejects diplomacy: its time for war

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    It is unconstitutional. The fact that it's been violated before does not change that fact.
    Article 1, Section 8, Clause 12 is what makes it constitutional.

    To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;
    Also the courts have stated that the 13th amendment never had the intention of getting rid of the draft.

    There has also been some question raised about the draft in regards to the 13th Amendment. Surely the draft, for at least some, constitutes involuntary servitude, prohibited by the 13th. The only exception the 13th contemplates for slavery or involuntary servitude is as a punishment for a duly convicted crime. However, the courts have ruled that the intent of the 13th was never to abolish the draft, and that serving in the military, even against your will, is not involuntary servitude. These "duties owed to the government" are exempted from 13th Amendment protection. In Butler v Perry (240 US 328 [1916]), the Supreme Court wrote:

    [The 13th Amendment] introduced no novel doctrine with respect of services always treated as exceptional, and certainly was not intended to interdict enforcement of those duties which individuals owe to the state, such as services in the army, militia, on the jury, etc. The great purpose in view was liberty under the protection of effective government, not the destruction of the latter by depriving it of essential powers.

    Butler did not directly concern the draft. It addressed laws that required able-bodied men to work on state roads for their maintenance when called by the state. However, its implications for the draft are clear and a case decided just two years later (Arver v US [245 US 366 {1918}]) set it in stone:

    [A]s we are unable to conceive upon what theory the exaction by government from the citizen of the performance of his supreme and noble duty of contributing to the defense of the rights and honor of the nation as the result of a war declared by the great representative body of the people can be said to be the imposition of involuntary servitude in violation of the prohibitions of the Thirteenth Amendment, we are constrained to the conclusion that the contention to that effect is refuted by its mere statement.
    link

    FindLaw.com - Arver vs US
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    Re: Iran rejects diplomacy: its time for war

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    It's not unconstitutional. The Constitution specifically states that Congress has the power to maintain a standing Army. Part of maintaining an army is manning that army. Therefore, conscription isn't un-Constitutional.
    That's some odd reasoning. Does the government have the power to draft you to serve in the US Postal Service or the IRS by the same logic?

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst
    You asked, "who said that crap during Bush's term?". I answered your question.
    Yep, you did. Now with Rangel and this Hollings guy, I'm aware of two congressmen who supported it. Which leads me back to the original question: Does a draft have widespread support amongst congressional Democrats? And does it have Barack Obama's support, as was implied in the original statement to which I replied?

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst
    Nobody said that anyone is proposing a draft.

    The only thing J-mac said, was that it was Liberals that recently recommended a draft, which is true. Earnest Hollings pushed an identical bill in the Senate.
    If no one here is seriously suggesting a return to the draft, then this has nothing to do with the subject of this thread and is just idiotic partisan hackery.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 11-01-09 at 09:47 PM.
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    Re: Iran rejects diplomacy: its time for war

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    That's some odd reasoning. Does the government have the power to draft you to serve in the US Postal Service or the IRS by the same logic?
    No. The draft can only be used for the military.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Yep, you did. Now with Rangel and this Hollings guy, I'm aware of two congressmen who supported it. Which leads me back to the original question: Does a draft have widespread support amongst congressional Democrats? And does it have Barack Obama's support, as was implied in the original statement to which I replied?
    This was already provided this a few posts back. Post #68.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    If no one here is seriously suggesting a return to the draft, then this has nothing to do with the subject of this thread and is just idiotic partisan hackery.
    The thread has evolved to this point partially because of you. No harm in debating a topic that leads to another in the same thread. At least I see nothing wrong with it so long as at least a few pages have been done already.
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    Re: Iran rejects diplomacy: its time for war

    Quote Originally Posted by Red_Dave View Post
    Well if Rathi is right in thinking that these strikes will only set program back a few years then are these strikes going to get us anywhere? In a few years time the Iranians will just be in the same possition as before except that if they wherent developing a weapons program before they will have more legitimacy in doing so.
    It will have set them back and hopefully buy us time for regime change. They are developing weapons that is the ONLY possible explanation of why they won't accept the Russian offer to refine their uranium, and why they are still working on the delivery system.

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