Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 32

Thread: Cash 4 Clunkers: $24K per car by taxpayers

  1. #11
    Sage
    jackalope's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Last Seen
    08-08-14 @ 01:54 PM
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    6,494

    Re: Cash 4 Clunkers: $24K per car by taxpayers

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldenboy219 View Post
    Does the article mention the statistical methodology used in this "study"?
    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    This isn't a statistical study...lol
    Quote Originally Posted by jackalope View Post
    Yes it is ...lol
    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    No, it's not. It's a mathematical breakdown of the cost of the program.
    To conduct the analysis, the Edmunds.com team of PhDs and statisticians examined the sales trend for luxury vehicles and others not included in Cash for Clunkers, and applied the historic relationship of those vehicles to total SAAR to make informed estimates. These estimates were independently verified through careful examination of sales patterns reflected by transaction data. Once the numbers were determined, Edmunds.com's analysts divided three billion dollars by 125,000 vehicles to arrive at the average $24,000 per vehicle.


    Cash for Clunkers Results Finally In: Taxpayers Paid $24,000 per Vehicle Sold, Reports Edmunds.com

    Statistics Definition | Definition of Statistics at Dictionary.com



    ps - to answer Goldenboy's question, I couldn't find it.
    Last edited by jackalope; 10-29-09 at 03:04 PM.

  2. #12
    Girthless
    RightinNYC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    New York, NY
    Last Seen
    01-23-11 @ 11:56 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Slightly Conservative
    Posts
    25,894

    Re: Cash 4 Clunkers: $24K per car by taxpayers

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe1991 View Post
    BS "report".

    690,000 vehicles were sold under the program, so:

    3 billion divided by 690,000 = $4,347 per car.
    That assumes that none of those people would have purchased a car without the program, which is obviously false. The relevant question is how many people purchased a car who otherwise wouldn't have, which is exactly what this study looked at.

    The rest is pure conjecture. They have no way of knowing how many people would have bought a vehicle "anyway".

    Cars were flying off the lots, and I'll bet everyone here knows someone who bought a car because ofthis deal.
    You're missing the point. It's really not that difficult to come up with fairly accurate predictions for what would have happened without the program. From there, it's simple math.

    To conduct the analysis, the Edmunds.com team of PhDs and statisticians examined the sales trend for luxury vehicles and others not included in Cash for Clunkers, and applied the historic relationship of those vehicles to total SAAR to make informed estimates. These estimates were independently verified through careful examination of sales patterns reflected by transaction data. Once the numbers were determined, Edmunds.com's analysts divided three billion dollars by 125,000 vehicles to arrive at the average $24,000 per vehicle.
    Cash for Clunkers Results Finally In: Taxpayers Paid $24,000 per Vehicle Sold, Reports Edmunds.com
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

  3. #13
    Sage
    jackalope's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Last Seen
    08-08-14 @ 01:54 PM
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    6,494

    Re: Cash 4 Clunkers: $24K per car by taxpayers

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    To conduct the analysis, the Edmunds.com team of PhDs and statisticians examined the sales trend for luxury vehicles and others not included in Cash for Clunkers, and applied the historic relationship of those vehicles to total SAAR to make informed estimates. These estimates were independently verified through careful examination of sales patterns reflected by transaction data. Once the numbers were determined, Edmunds.com's analysts divided three billion dollars by 125,000 vehicles to arrive at the average $24,000 per vehicle.


    Cash for Clunkers Results Finally In: Taxpayers Paid $24,000 per Vehicle Sold, Reports Edmunds.com

    I question the comparison 'to the historical relationship of those vehicles to total SAAR' for two reasons. One, what was happening in the industry bore no relationship to historical data, the industry was in crisis. Two, the environmental qualifications for what vehicles qualified could have (likely did?) effect what cars were purchased.

  4. #14
    Sage
    apdst's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Bagdad, La.
    Last Seen
    Today @ 06:33 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Conservative
    Posts
    76,598

    Re: Cash 4 Clunkers: $24K per car by taxpayers

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe1991 View Post
    BS "report".

    690,000 vehicles were sold under the program, so:

    3 billion divided by 690,000 = $4,347 per car.

    The rest is pure conjecture. They have no way of knowing how many people would have bought a vehicle "anyway".

    Cars were flying off the lots, and I'll bet everyone here knows someone who bought a car because ofthis deal.
    What you're not taking into consideration, is that we had to pay hundreds, possibly thousands of government trough-heads to process the paperwork, above the actual money given away to the car dealers.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  5. #15
    Girthless
    RightinNYC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    New York, NY
    Last Seen
    01-23-11 @ 11:56 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Slightly Conservative
    Posts
    25,894

    Re: Cash 4 Clunkers: $24K per car by taxpayers

    Quote Originally Posted by jackalope View Post
    I question the comparison 'to the historical relationship of those vehicles to total SAAR' for two reasons. One, what was happening in the industry bore no relationship to historical data, the industry was in crisis. Two, the environmental qualifications for what vehicles qualified could have (likely did?) effect what cars were purchased.
    These are both valid points, and I don't know how significantly they would change the analysis. I'd wager that they might bear on the magnitude of the multiplier, though not by too much. I would say it's safe to conclude that the cost to the taxpayer was significantly more than the $4000/car that was actually given out.
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

  6. #16
    Sage
    jackalope's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Last Seen
    08-08-14 @ 01:54 PM
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    6,494

    Re: Cash 4 Clunkers: $24K per car by taxpayers

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    These are both valid points, and I don't know how significantly they would change the analysis. I'd wager that they might bear on the magnitude of the multiplier, though not by too much. I would say it's safe to conclude that the cost to the taxpayer was significantly more than the $4000/car that was actually given out.
    IA, I think the cost was higher, not sure how much. I trust this study less than a similar housing one that also is in the news today.

  7. #17
    Professor
    Joe1991's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    TX
    Last Seen
    04-22-14 @ 02:05 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    1,829

    Re: Cash 4 Clunkers: $24K per car by taxpayers

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    These are both valid points, and I don't know how significantly they would change the analysis. I'd wager that they might bear on the magnitude of the multiplier, though not by too much. I would say it's safe to conclude that the cost to the taxpayer was significantly more than the $4000/car that was actually given out.
    We don't know how much, but we do know a news headline of "Taxpayers Paid $24,000 per Vehicle Sold" is disingenuous at best.

    690k vehicles were sold under the program, not 125k.

    And as anyone in business knows, there are many side benefits to a sales program: new customers, free advertising, future sales, future maintence etc.

    This "statistical analysis" was worthless without much more additional data being added in.

  8. #18
    Girthless
    RightinNYC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    New York, NY
    Last Seen
    01-23-11 @ 11:56 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Slightly Conservative
    Posts
    25,894

    Re: Cash 4 Clunkers: $24K per car by taxpayers

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe1991 View Post
    We don't know how much, but we do know a news headline of "Taxpayers Paid $24,000 per Vehicle Sold" is disingenuous at best.

    690k vehicles were sold under the program, not 125k.
    And you still don't seem to understand that the 690k number is irrelevant unless no cars would have been sold without this program.

    And as anyone in business knows, there are many side benefits to a sales program: new customers, free advertising, future sales, future maintence etc.

    This "statistical analysis" was worthless without much more additional data being added in.
    Those are additional benefits that the car dealers received. How does that have anything to do with the cost to the taxpayer?

    This is very basic stuff:

    (Total cost to the taxpayer) / ((Number of cars that were sold with the program) - (number of cars that would have been sold without the program)) = The cost to the taxpayer for each incremental sale.
    Last edited by RightinNYC; 10-29-09 at 03:51 PM.
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

  9. #19
    Sage
    Ikari's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Colorado
    Last Seen
    12-08-17 @ 01:05 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Left
    Posts
    54,124

    Re: Cash 4 Clunkers: $24K per car by taxpayers

    Quote Originally Posted by jackalope View Post
    I was reading about this earlier. It's made me begin to question if extending the credit is a good idea.
    I don't think so. Some of this is just band-aid sort of crap to make it seem like the government is doing something. With cars, the fact of the matter was that the average age of a car people had was near 10 years. There's about to be a lot of turnaround on that front because people will soon be buying a lot of cars. Though the economic downturn probably stifled that temporarily a bit. Housing is a bit more static, and the purchase a lot more long term. That too would turn around. The idea though is to convert renters to owners, and not just people who were going to buy a new house anyway. It's the same sort of thing as the cars. There were people going to buy a car anyway, that's not really touting anything for the program. It's to encourage change on top of that number, that's spurring something.

    In the end, with all the government give away to companies and banks they had to make it seem as if they were at least throwing the People a bone. But I doubt that either program had significant impact.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  10. #20
    Professor
    Joe1991's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    TX
    Last Seen
    04-22-14 @ 02:05 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    1,829

    Re: Cash 4 Clunkers: $24K per car by taxpayers

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    And you still don't seem to understand that the 690k number is irrelevant unless no cars would have been sold without this program.
    I understand what they did, I just don't agree with their methodology.

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    Those are additional benefits that the car dealers received. How does that have anything to do with the cost to the taxpayer?
    The taxpayer benefits by a stonger economy, more jobs, consumer confindence, etc, etc, etc.

    Trying to assign a static number today to an investment that may not pay off for a decade is ridiculous.

Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •