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Thread: US drone strikes may break international law: UN

  1. #191
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    Re: US drone strikes may break international law: UN

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    Orwell grew up and was no longer a socialist by the time he wrote Animal Farm and 1984.

    His writing shows a clear growth in understanding of the evil of socialism and communism. The Road to Wigan Pier is clearly pro-socialist. Keep the Aspidistra Flying and A Clergyman's Daughter show the disillusionment of the socialist who learns what it really is all about. Animal Farm and [u]1984[u] are clearly anti-socialist.
    Im sorry you're going to have to show me a source proving that Orwell was anti-socialist. You claim he was anti-socialist and anti-communist whereas it is widely known he was anti-totalitarian and a communist at that. Methinks you lack acquaintance with the meanings and roots of communism itself. I doubt he ever turned on socialism rather he had a distaste for stalinism and totalitarianism, as the forms of government he anthropomorphizes in his book are meant to be reflections of totalitarian governments had through workers revolts. Im not sure thats what I remember from highschool, but your idea that he 'turned on it because he recognized its "inherent" evils' is sourceless.

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    Re: US drone strikes may break international law: UN

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    No, the real analogy which is applicable is that Mexico is having problems with some terrorist group. Those groups have fled across the US boarder from time to time. We haven't been able to catch all of them.
    That is a false analogy, first of all the ISI has been infiltrated at the highest levels, in fact the head of the ISI funded the 9-11 attacks and second of all the Pakistani government refuses to go into the border regions to root out the Taliban and AQ fighters.

    Mexico claims there are terrorists in a heavily populated apartment complex in LA, bombs the **** out of it.
    Again using human shields does not make one immune from counterattack, and in fact in many cases the Pashtun are knowingly harboring the Taliban and AQ insurgents.

    Kills everyone. There were no terrorists, only civilians, and there was no concrete evidence in the first place as to there being large number of terrorists. Mexico still in the right?
    Except that there are terrorists that we are hitting so again that is a false analogy.

  3. #193
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    Re: US drone strikes may break international law: UN

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    I've read the OP and I have not changed my tune.
    Oh, so what you're doing is hijacking the thread and changing the topic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    It certainly was war, but it was also quite clearly atrocity.
    No, it wasn't. You have to look at that war in context.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    One of the worst things humans have done, a blight upon our history.
    A city burned.

    A city that was the capital of the enemy that started a major war with a sneak attack, and then continued to refuse to surrender when it clearly had no means of gaining either victory or stalmate. Welcome to what war is really all about. But that was no atrocity.

    The Death March of Bataan was.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    As was Dresden. War or not, atrocity is atrocity.
    No, war is war. Dresden had the bad luck to be in Europe during a war. Life's a bitch, war is hell, and they all burned. I guess the citizens of Dresden finally had a substantial reason finally to regret their votes for Hitler.

    What, you people giving up on vilifying the US for nuking Japan as too cliche?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Still no to the honesty eh?
    Haven't seen any from you, no.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    But you wasted more than 3000 more of your fellow citizens lives to get no where.
    Nope, I recommended turning the entire nation of Afghanland into nuclear slag.

    I didn't vote for Bush.

    I didn't vote for your Messiah.

    So you can leave the "we" out of this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    And well more than 3000 of your fellow citizens lives are lost each year to things like car accidents, blablablablablablabla...
    completely irrelevant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    I agreed with going into Afghanistan at the beginning, I thought proper response was there. We got side tracked into Iraq and now 8 years later we really haven't gotten anywhere. All we have is more dead Americas. That doesn't seem insane to you?
    More irrelvancies.

    Dead Americans is what happens when liberals take the Presidency. The question is what to do from here.

    Are you voting to run away?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    You're probably not aware of this, but innocence belongs in civilian areas.
    Innocence belongs in civillian areas that aren't war zones.

    Armies exist to break things and kill people, not to pass judgement on guilt and innocence.

  4. #194
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    Re: US drone strikes may break international law: UN

    Quote Originally Posted by SE102 View Post
    Im sorry you're going to have to show me a source proving that Orwell was anti-socialist.
    You can choose to read the books, or you can remain ignorant.

    Not my problem.

    No honest person reading Keep The Aspidistra Flying, Animal Farm, and especially 1984 can imagine that Orwell remained sympathetic to the cause he espoused in The Road to Wigan Pier.

    Outside of making it obvious that you haven't studied Orwell, what do you want from me?

    Oh, okay, read his essays, notably "Politics and the English Language".

  5. #195
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    Re: US drone strikes may break international law: UN

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    You can choose to read the books, or you can remain ignorant.

    No honest person reading Keep The Aspidistra Flying, Animal Farm, and especially 1984 can imagine that Orwell remained sympathetic to the cause he espoused in The Road to Wigan Pier.

    Outside of making it obvious that you haven't studied Orwell, what do you want from me?
    No, I have read both 1984 and animal farm multiple times in multiple institutions, in the American one, they choose to mute 1984 and animal farm and imply in the child's educational and cultural context that these are anti-communist books. In the international high school I went to they purposefully made it known to me that George Orwell was a communist.

    Just because Orwell chose to demonize the institutions of revolutions which claimed to be communist and saw the actions of communists in wars does not in any way imply dissuasion from his proletarian cause. Do you think because he chose to demonize stalinist Russia that he was turned off to the injustices of capitalism and did a 180 turn straight into your camp?

    I have not read his essays except for what I can peruse now between classes.
    Last edited by MKULTRABOY; 10-28-09 at 06:57 PM. Reason: accidental flame

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    Re: US drone strikes may break international law: UN

    Quote Originally Posted by SE102 View Post
    No, I have read both 1984 and animal farm multiple times in multiple institutions, jerk,
    Then you have no excuse for failing to understand them.

    And while you're busy jerking, think about reading Keep the Aspidistra Flying.

    You are clearly in no position to discuss Orwell if you haven't read him.

    ====

    Oh, and clearly your "international" school was full of **** regarding Orwell's alleged communism:

    In 1949 Orwell was approached by a friend, Celia Kirwan, who had just started working for a Foreign Office unit, the Information Research Department, which had been set up by the Labour government to publish pro-democratic and anti-communist propaganda. He gave her a list of 37 writers and artists he considered to be unsuitable as IRD authors because of their pro-communist leanings.
    and

    Orwell had returned from Catalonia a staunch anti-Stalinist and anti-Communist, but he remained to the end a man of the left and, in his own words, a 'democratic socialist'.
    Naturally, no one reading Keep the Aspidistra Flying, in which the protagonist escapes his socialist daydream/nightmare by becoming an advertising copywriter, can believe that Orwell's avowed socialism was deep or sincere.
    Last edited by Scarecrow Akhbar; 10-28-09 at 07:06 PM.

  7. #197
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    Re: US drone strikes may break international law: UN

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    Oh, so what you're doing is hijacking the thread and changing the topic.
    wow. Really? Lies and distortion are your only defense here? I commented on the OP from the start. You started in with deflections about talking about other weapons when other weapons were not on topic

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    No, it wasn't. You have to look at that war in context.
    No, atrocity is atrocity. In war you can commit many atrocities. You may be able to scrape together a defense of the atrocity, but it doesn't make it less of an atrocity. Atrocity is an absolute scale, it's not relative to something. You may engage in atrocity, you may even have an argument for doing so; but it doesn't take away from it. Nuking Japan was an atrocity as well. It was a horror brought to life that no one had even realized before. It's not to say there wasn't reason behind it. Or that we were wrong for doing so. But it's still a horrible event and a black mark upon humanity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    A city burned.

    A city that was the capital of the enemy that started a major war with a sneak attack, and then continued to refuse to surrender when it clearly had no means of gaining either victory or stalmate. Welcome to what war is really all about. But that was no atrocity.
    It most certainly did, we killed a lot of civilians. We destroyed a lot of life, mass destruction on that scale is atrocity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    The Death March of Bataan was.
    That too. And it can be perhaps argued that it was more brutal as instead of bombing indistinguishable people from up high, it was committed face to face.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    No, war is war. Dresden had the bad luck to be in Europe during a war. Life's a bitch, war is hell, and they all burned. I guess the citizens of Dresden finally had a substantial reason finally to regret their votes for Hitler.

    What, you people giving up on vilifying the US for nuking Japan as too cliche?
    There's no vilifying. Stop using hyperbole. It's just an absolute truth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    Haven't seen any from you, no.
    Well I guess you're getting what you dish out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    Nope, I recommended turning the entire nation of Afghanland into nuclear slag.

    I didn't vote for Bush.

    I didn't vote for your Messiah.

    So you can leave the "we" out of this.
    I didn't vote for Obama. So less you want to extend the same courtesy, piss off. You'll get treated as you treat others.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    completely irrelevant.
    No it's not. You want me to be ok with the killing of 10,000's of people, civilans and innocents, over the loss of 3000 American lives. I'm supposed to freak out. I'm supposed to be ok with government expansion and control. I'm supposed to support forever war based on that. But that number isn't unique, lots of things kill lots of Americans. And like it or not, the car driving down the street is going to be well more dangerous to my life than terrorism ever will. So if I'm not going to freak out about cars, why should I freak out and abandon all logic for terrorism? Tell you what, when terrorism approaches the death rates for cars, I'll start to give your argument more weight. Till then, it remains low probability events, and I don't like making sweeping, global decisions on low probability events.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    More irrelvancies.

    Dead Americans is what happens when liberals take the Presidency. The question is what to do from here.
    Didn't those people initially die under Bush? Interesting. Dead Americans happen every day. It's just this cause [terrorism] can be used to inspire fear and irrationality amongst the people. Making it easier for government to expand its powers against the People. That's it. Otherwise, we should be freaking out more so over these other issues. But we don't because we experience these things every day and are more knowledgeable about the probabilities and outcomes of those cases. If we applied the same rationale to terrorism, no one would be freaking out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    Are you voting to run away?
    While I had initially supported Afghanistan as legitimate target (never Iraq however), in 8 years we haven't made improvements. I'm sorta stuck in performance based analysis. If something works, keep it. If something doesn't work, pitch it. The war...it ain't working.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    Innocence belongs in civillian areas that aren't war zones.
    The places you propose bombing you merely define as "warzone" as to remove responsibility and guilt. But they are civilian areas. Apartment complexes, communities, etc. It's no war zone till you drop the bomb.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    Armies exist to break things and kill people, not to pass judgement on guilt and innocence.
    Armies exist to defend sovereignty and freedom. Not engage in offensive, occupational wars in lands not our own for causes not our own.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: US drone strikes may break international law: UN

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    That is a false analogy, first of all the ISI has been infiltrated at the highest levels, in fact the head of the ISI funded the 9-11 attacks and second of all the Pakistani government refuses to go into the border regions to root out the Taliban and AQ fighters.
    They'll work with us. You think we can't get them to work with us? We can set up a joint task force with responsibilities for policing and investigation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    Again using human shields does not make one immune from counterattack, and in fact in many cases the Pashtun are knowingly harboring the Taliban and AQ insurgents.
    The whole "shoot the hostage" thing is getting old. Especially when there isn't proof that in what we bomb there were definitely terrorists.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    Except that there are terrorists that we are hitting so again that is a false analogy.
    Except that sometimes there weren't. And when they were, the number of civilians to terrorist dead is unacceptable.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: US drone strikes may break international law: UN

    In your own quote...

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    Orwell had returned from Catalonia a staunch anti-Stalinist and anti-Communist, but he remained to the end a man of the left and, in his own words, a 'democratic socialist'.
    And BTW something tells me that keep the apidastra flying has less to do with a socialist delusion and has a much closer relation to orwell's own forays into purposefully seeking low waged jobs and even encarceration to be amongst those and live the life of those whom he saw oppressed.

    Idk... for dying a democratic socialist there sure is a whole ****load of socialist in being a democratic socialist. Do you see where it says
    but he remained to the end a man of the left and, in his own words, a 'democratic socialist'.
    Because that is a quote I would sure use in my argument that he is and was always a socialist. Which would mean that the folks in my international school were indeed not full of ****.

    Orwell had returned from Catalonia a staunch anti-Stalinist and anti-Communist, but he remained to the end a man of the left and, in his own words, a 'democratic socialist'.

    Naturally, no one reading Keep the Aspidistra Flying, in which the protagonist escapes his socialist daydream/nightmare by becoming an advertising copywriter, can believe that Orwell's avowed socialism was deep or sincere.
    You wrote that, you're self conflicting in a very obvious way.

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    Re: US drone strikes may break international law: UN

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    They'll work with us. You think we can't get them to work with us? We can set up a joint task force with responsibilities for policing and investigation.
    They are either unwilling or incapable of rooting out the unlawful combatants, in fact they won't even attempt to root them out in the Pashtun region. That's why we have to go in in the first place.

    The whole "shoot the hostage" thing is getting old.
    The whole "human shields" makes one immune from counterattack is getting old, and in fact demonstrates a complete misunderstanding of international law.


    Especially when there isn't proof that in what we bomb there were definitely terrorists.
    BS, I recall maybe on incident in which there were not militants present in one of these strategic strikes.

    Except that sometimes there weren't.
    Source?

    And when they were, the number of civilians to terrorist dead is unacceptable.
    So in your world using human shields makes one immune from attack? Sorry but international law would contradict your thesis. By your logic the air campaign against the Germans during WW2 was unacceptable because more civilians were killed than soldiers.

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