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Thread: Rats! City to Pay for Informing on Tax Cheats

  1. #21
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    Re: Rats! City to Pay for Informing on Tax Cheats

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    You're exactly right. That's why you only tell your accountant what they need to know. If an accountant ratted out a client, that accountant would not only lose his license, but his testimony in any court hearing would be inadmissable. It's the same style of ethics that prevents a lawyer from testifying against his client.
    This is patently false and you really outta stop talking about this subject. There is no such thing as an accountant-client relationship that prohibits the same actions as a lawyer-client relationship. You are ignoring that accountants regularly get subpoenaed to testify. An accountant would lose their license for pushing illegal tax shelters and knowingly helping a client evade taxes. In fact, Circular 230 along with several other pieces of legislation and ethical guidelines requires an accountant to inform authorities of illegal actions by your client that your client refuses to cease. Auditors are legally required to inform the SEC of illegal actions that the board of directors will not fix. The law makes it mandatory to rat out a client that does not change their actions.

    Well, now you're talking about fraud. Big difference between fraud, evasion and cheating.
    Not at all. Reporting that you made only X dollars on your return when you know you made Y is fraud. It is also tax evasion. Avoidance however, is another issue. Evasion and fraud are fundamentally the same thing.
    Last edited by obvious Child; 10-29-09 at 03:51 AM.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

  2. #22
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    Re: Rats! City to Pay for Informing on Tax Cheats

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    Leave the auditing and accounting to those with the knowledge. There's a sliding scale of certainty when it comes to deductions. If you take a large number of frivolous claims, you can be prosecuted for tax evasion. Furthermore, your accountant can be fined between 50% and 100% of the entire return amount. There are some real teeth behind the legislation regarding such deductions that has come out in the past five years.

    That'll only happen when the frivilous deductions run into the millions.

    Ignorance is no excuse in an audit.
    At which time, you write a check for the difference and go on about your business. Been there, done that. Twice!

    The IRS really has a lot of people bluffed into thinking that they're gonna be big trouble is they punk Uncle Sam out of a few thousand bucks. it just ain't true. I'll say it again, the IRS knows that they'll never see their money, if they put you in jail. In fact, they'll go in the hole, because now, they have to house you, clothe you and feed you.

    But, again, it all boils down to what they can prove. They can't gig with assumptions.

    I wrote off a ****ing shotgun one time and got away with it in an audit. If I can do that, I can do damn near anything.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  3. #23
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    Re: Rats! City to Pay for Informing on Tax Cheats

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    This is patently false and you really outta stop talking about this subject. There is no such thing as an accountant-client relationship that prohibits the same actions as a lawyer-client relationship.
    Untrue, untrue!

    You are ignoring that accountants regularly get subpoenaed to testify. An accountant would lose their license for pushing illegal tax shelters and knowingly helping a client evade taxes. In fact, Circular 230 along with several other pieces of legislation and ethical guidelines requires an accountant to inform authorities of illegal actions by your client that your client refuses to cease. Auditors are legally required to inform the SEC of illegal actions that the board of directors will not fix. The law makes it mandatory to rat out a client that does not change their actions.
    Yeah, they get subpeonaed all the time...as a third party auditer. But, an accountant cannot testify against his client, based on that accountant's assumption of wrong doing.


    Not at all. Reporting that you made only X dollars on your return when you know you made Y is fraud. It is also tax evasion. Avoidance however, is another issue. Evasion and fraud are fundamentally the same thing.
    No, refusing to pay your taxes is evasion. Falsifying your tax return is fraud. Huge difference.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  4. #24
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    Re: Rats! City to Pay for Informing on Tax Cheats

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    That'll only happen when the frivilous deductions run into the millions.

    Glad to see you are once again changing your argument, this is what? the 500th time since you started posting?
    You first claim that you won't get prosecuted...but then you agree that it DOES happen. Just what side are you arguing?

    At which time, you write a check for the difference and go on about your business. Been there, done that. Twice!
    Yours must have been small numbers. People have gone to jail for tax evasion.

    Richard Hatch anyone?
    Janine Lindemulder anyone? (I'm sure that names rings some bells here)
    Thomas Carbo anyone?

    I'll say it again, the IRS knows that they'll never see their money, if they put you in jail.
    Depends on what other assets you have. Furthermore, you ignore the fact that the IRS tends from time to time to make examples of people. Often the IRS will actually spend more money in proving a case then what they get from the judgment JUST to make a point that tax evaders will get hunted down.

    But, again, it all boils down to what they can prove. They can't gig with assumptions.
    Hence why accountants get subpoenaed.

    I wrote off a ****ing shotgun one time and got away with it in an audit. If I can do that, I can do damn near anything.
    Depends on the materiality. And seriously, I don't trust a damn thing you say about your life.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

  5. #25
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    Re: Rats! City to Pay for Informing on Tax Cheats

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Well, now you're talking about fraud. Big difference between fraud, evasion and cheating.
    No, there's actually not. Tax evasion/fraud are the same thing. Presumably, when you refer to "cheating," you're referring to tax avoidance, which is legal. However, since this entire thread is about tax evasion/fraud, I don't know why you keep bringing that up.

    I didn't say anything about underreporting sales. I was referring to paying employees under the table. If the employer is paying his employees under the table, then the employees owe the government income taxes.
    And the employees will figure that out with the government. I don't know why you think that excuses the employer from liability for his failure to pay taxes.

    The burden of proof is on the IRS.
    Yes, I know. The problem is that you can't fathom how the IRS would ever prove any of this.

    I understand that IRS audits are held to the same search and seizure laws as anything else. Like I said, the Constitution doesn't cease to apply, just because we're dealing with the IRS.
    Incorrect.

    FindLaw | Cases and Codes

    Compared to how many millions of tax payers?? Do you know that I have a greater chance of being wrongfully convicted of murder than being convicted of tax evasion?
    The concept of deterrence appears to be lost on you.

    Tell me, if the chances are so slim, then why don't you lie on your taxes every year?

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    The point is, without probable cause, they can't do ****.
    Incorrect.

    An employee is going to admit to tax evasion on his part. Hmmmm!
    If he knows that he will only have to pay a small penalty while he would receive a large whistleblower payout, you bet.

    At which time, the competitor goes to prison for industrial espionage. A felony, by the way.
    lol, learning information about crimes committed by a competitor and then passing that on to the government is not "industrial espionage."


    You're exactly right. That's why you only tell your accountant what they need to know. If an accountant ratted out a client, that accountant would not only lose his license, but his testimony in any court hearing would be inadmissable. It's the same style of ethics that prevents a lawyer from testifying against his client.
    Incorrect. Accountant-client privilege is far narrower than attorney-client privilege. The accountant-client privilege only applies in civil matters. If the government decides to bring criminal charges, there is no privilege.
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

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    Re: Rats! City to Pay for Informing on Tax Cheats

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Untrue, untrue!
    Failing with Flying Colors!!!!

    Income Tax Returns Your Accountant Should Not File | Pope Consulting Inc.
    The Cost Of Secrecy
    Article: Former ThyssenKrupp accountant testifies.(News)(Brief Article) | AccessMyLibrary - Promoting library advocacy
    7203 - Accountant-Client Privlege

    Hence why you hire a tax attorney as the lawyer provision is the key.

    Just Stop Talking.

    Yeah, they get subpeonaed all the time...as a third party auditer. But, an accountant cannot testify against his client, based on that accountant's assumption of wrong doing.
    Then how did the various accountants in my links do just that?

    You are ignoring the part where you claimed that an accountant can't rat his client out despite being utterly wrong.

    No, refusing to pay your taxes is evasion. Falsifying your tax return is fraud. Huge difference.
    Did I give those examples? No. You can file your taxes and yet evade at the same time. Rangel essentially did it by not declaring income from property sales.

    Evading taxation is not limited to not paying.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

  7. #27
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    Re: Rats! City to Pay for Informing on Tax Cheats

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post

    Glad to see you are once again changing your argument, this is what? the 500th time since you started posting?
    You first claim that you won't get prosecuted...but then you agree that it DOES happen. Just what side are you arguing?
    It's called, "finding common ground". It usually happens in a discussion. Should I expect you to understand that?



    Yours must have been small numbers. People have gone to jail for tax evasion.
    Yeah, the first audit, I wrote a check for about 1500 and the second I wrote a check for 3 grand. I threatened to shoot the auditer in the second audit, so I knew that check was going to be purdy big.

    Richard Hatch anyone?
    Janine Lindemulder anyone? (I'm sure that names rings some bells here)
    Thomas Carbo anyone?
    they went to jail, because the IRS knew they would never see their money, anyway. Ya see, tax evasion laws aren't for people temporarily punk Uncle Sam out of his money. They are for people who permanently punk Uncle Sam out of his money.



    Depends on what other assets you have. Furthermore, you ignore the fact that the IRS tends from time to time to make examples of people. Often the IRS will actually spend more money in proving a case then what they get from the judgment JUST to make a point that tax evaders will get hunted down.
    Very rare and it only happens when 7+ figures are involved. It's usually politically motivated. How much did Tim Geithner **** the government out of? That we know of, that is?







    Depends on the materiality. And seriously, I don't trust a damn thing you say about your life.
    I could give a **** about how much you trust what I say. You don't sign my paycheck, so it's irrelevant.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  8. #28
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    Re: Rats! City to Pay for Informing on Tax Cheats

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Yeah, the first audit, I wrote a check for about 1500 and the second I wrote a check for 3 grand. I threatened to shoot the auditer in the second audit, so I knew that check was going to be purdy big.
    EL
    OH
    EL

    Yea, it was no big deal, I mean, I just threatened the life of a federal agent cause I'm hardcore like that. No repercussions whatsoever. He tried to stiff me for a few extra grand so I ripped his larynx out and kicked him in the balls so hard that his sister walks funny.

    That's just how I roll.
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

  9. #29
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    Re: Rats! City to Pay for Informing on Tax Cheats


    Ahh, ya see, you left out the part where the accountant/lawyer turned states evidence, because he didn't want to go to jail for a helluva lot more than a wee bit of tax cheating.

    From your link:A former attorney, accountant and confidant of two former ThyssenKrupp N.A. Inc. executives last week described in detail how he filtered money the men are accused of taking in a $6.5 million kickback scheme.

    Jerome Allen, who reached a plea agreement, said former Thyssen-Krupp N.A. CEO Kenneth Graham approached him about a plan to make money off the expansion of the company's Detroit steel-processing plant in the 1990s. He said Graham told him to work with former Vice President Kyle Dresbach.
    Apples and oranges.



    Did I give those examples? No. You can file your taxes and yet evade at the same time. Rangel essentially did it by not declaring income from property sales.

    Evading taxation is not limited to not paying.

    Annnnnnnnnd, where is Charlie Rangel, today? He ain't in jail? neither is Tim Geithner, nor Tom Daschle. Tax laws have teeth, may ass.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  10. #30
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    Re: Rats! City to Pay for Informing on Tax Cheats

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    It's called, "finding common ground". It usually happens in a discussion. Should I expect you to understand that?
    Perhaps you should not start with absolutist statements then?

    Yeah, the first audit, I wrote a check for about 1500 and the second I wrote a check for 3 grand. I threatened to shoot the auditer in the second audit, so I knew that check was going to be purdy big.
    Again, tiny numbers.

    they went to jail, because the IRS knew they would never see their money, anyway. Ya see, tax evasion laws aren't for people temporarily punk Uncle Sam out of his money. They are for people who permanently punk Uncle Sam out of his money.
    Except all of them had assets at the time. You do know what an asset is?

    Very rare and it only happens when 7+ figures are involved. It's usually politically motivated. How much did Tim Geithner **** the government out of? That we know of, that is?
    Actually, it's often for drug dealers, importers and manufacturers.

    I could give a **** about how much you trust what I say. You don't sign my paycheck, so it's irrelevant.
    Except what I say I can back up. You can't. It's hilarious how you think that a lawyer-client relationship exists with accountants. Maybe you outta actually talk to one for a change before talking out of your rear?
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

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