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Thread: U.S. troops hope Afghanistan sacrifices not in vain

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    Re: U.S. troops hope Afghanistan sacrifices not in vain

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    Most untrue!!
    Then why do we still have 150,000 troops there?
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: U.S. troops hope Afghanistan sacrifices not in vain

    i liked the source of the WH on the sign Mission Accomplished on the ship. of course the WH never lies about something to cover that inept bastard Bush's ass when he makes a complete fool of himself internationally. that is the best joke i have heard in years. Bush was and is a liar. he lead your troops to war for anything but the right reason. how is it possible for anyone to defend that clown. i will never understand that. not if i live to be 10000. the defense of a complete idiot. maybe you just feel sorry for him.
    The flame that is between us could set every soul on fire. I would love to take that heat and let's fill the whole world with desire.
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    Re: U.S. troops hope Afghanistan sacrifices not in vain

    Quote Originally Posted by katiegrrl0 View Post
    i liked the source of the WH on the sign Mission Accomplished on the ship. of course the WH never lies about something to cover that inept bastard Bush's ass when he makes a complete fool of himself internationally. that is the best joke i have heard in years. Bush was and is a liar. he lead your troops to war for anything but the right reason. how is it possible for anyone to defend that clown. i will never understand that. not if i live to be 10000. the defense of a complete idiot. maybe you just feel sorry for him.

    Now just replace the word Bush, with "ass clown Obama".....


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    Re: U.S. troops hope Afghanistan sacrifices not in vain

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Can we stop with the Kool Aid nonsense now?
    I have presented info from the most authoritative source on Iraqi deaths. You have presented no sources more authoritative.

    I leave it for the objective lurkers to decide who is imbibing of kool-aid.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: U.S. troops hope Afghanistan sacrifices not in vain

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    What would be the moral response to watching 3,000 of our own citizens killed on 9/11?
    To enlist the support from the world, who empathized with us after the attack in going after those that attacked us.

    Instead we continued with the same reckless killing of innocent civilians that brought about the attack on 9/11.

    As a result of our stupid and counter productive efforts for the last 8 years we have increased the numbers of terrorists worldwide increasing the threat to our national security.

    We appear to be very slow learners!
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: U.S. troops hope Afghanistan sacrifices not in vain

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    The majority of all the terrorists that attacked us were Saudis. The majority of the suicide bombers in Iraq were Saudis and the majority of funding for the terrorists come from Saudis.
    And don't forget that the majority of the funding for the Taliban in Afghanistan comes from Saudi Arabia.

    Still, it is not Saudi Arabian government policy to do this. The other items I mentioned still apply. We had no interest in invading Saudi Arabia. Likewise, we have no interest in invading Iran. But we did in Iraq.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba
    Yet still we killed more.
    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib
    No we didn't.
    I'd like to just take your word for it but the numbers at IraqBodyCount say different.
    Do they distinguish between civilians killed by terrorists/insurgents and civilians killed by American/Coalition forces?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    They made concession to the citizens to avoid being murdered. You won't know if we made in success in installing a pro-west government in Iraq until our all our occupation forces withdrawn and we stop paying the bad guys to behave.
    I agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    And what happens when we stop handing out stacks of hundred dollar bills to the bad guys?
    Hopefully, a) the Iraqi government will pay them and b) they find civilian jobs - grow the economy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    The only successes we can point to are dependent on our heavily armed full occupation forces being there to prop up the government from its own people, and the payola to the bad actors.
    It is encouraging that mass violence on a broad scale has not broken out now that we have disengaged from their cities.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Yeah, we have been saying that for 6 years and yet we still keep our full occupation force there to keep the peace. Saddam did that with just a bluff.
    I am not sure what you mean here. Saddam enforced security through murder, rtorture and rape. Lovely.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib
    We most certainly have the right to enforce our way of government on others at the end of a gun. We have along history of doing so. It is in their interest.
    Just because we have done it in the past doesn't make it right. We should have learned that from Vietnam.
    In Vietnam, we weren't exactly promoting democracy, now were we? I think it is right to spread democracy - it is in our interest. As I have mentioned this opinion of mine is currently being challenged and I may change my mind. I am going to read "Just and Unjust Wars" by Michael Walzer. I think the crux of the situation is that he claims National Defense is the only justification and I am claiming National Interest is justification. Vietnam is a bad example of National Interest. There are many others like Mexico and the Phillipines.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    I blame the Democrats that supported our war with Iraq as much as I do the Republicans. How is that being biased?
    I wasn't talking partisan wrt Democrats or Republicans. I was talking about being partisan in your anti-war stance against realists or outright pro-war folks. Maybe partisan is the wrong word for it.

    There are still tremendous challenges and it could all fail when we leave and stop paying, as you point out. There is disagreement on the motivations and justification of invading in the first place. However, there are successes and we are there, involved, right now. So what is our best move? In this area, you could be more objective/realistic, in my opinion.

    Give some credit, the troops are working their ass off to make it a success. They do their best at avoiding civilian deaths. They work with Iraqis to bridge sectarian divides. They work 18-hour days, 7 days a week for months in theater. It is no wonder they come home with PTSD. They are real heroes.

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    Re: U.S. troops hope Afghanistan sacrifices not in vain

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Before he places our youth in harms way, the Commander-in-Chief has the responsibility to confirm and double confirm a threat. That was not done. Either that or the intel was doctored, which seems to be the case as indicated by disclosures since then. Either way, it was wrong.
    I think a double confirm was done. I do not think the intel was doctored, unless you have evidence you can present to me to change my mind. I do think there was a range of intel, some saying he had it and some not. That is typical for intel. You have to source it and weight it. I am not convinced it was wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    But Saddam had kicked out the US oil companies and had threatened to switch the Euro, and they had attacked our oil spigot in Kuwait.
    That would not have mattered to our oil industry.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib
    I think it was in our interest to spread democracy. This is something that liberals should support.
    That is a BS excuse for attacking and occupying a country that was of no threat to us. Democracy does not work when you force it on others at the end of a gun.
    I totally disagree, but may change my mind per my other post.

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    Re: U.S. troops hope Afghanistan sacrifices not in vain

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    And don't forget that the majority of the funding for the Taliban in Afghanistan comes from Saudi Arabia.

    Bingo! We have a winner!

    Still, it is not Saudi Arabian government policy to do this. The other items I mentioned still apply. We had no interest in invading Saudi Arabia. Likewise, we have no interest in invading Iran. But we did in Iraq.

    Not officially anyway! After being asked to move most of our forces out of Saudi Arabia, we needed another place to set up military control of the region. Since we knew Iraq was no threat after we bombed them back a century in Gulf War !, they were chosen.

    Do they distinguish between civilians killed by terrorists/insurgents and civilians killed by American/Coalition forces?

    Did we?

    I agree.

    Hopefully, a) the Iraqi government will pay them and b) they find civilian jobs - grow the economy.

    So you do not believe the civil war will resume, when we are not there to prevent it? I think you are not being honest with yourself.

    It is encouraging that mass violence on a broad scale has not broken out now that we have disengaged from their cities.

    We still have 150,000 heavily armed troops there, and paying off the bad actors, what are they going to do?

    I am not sure what you mean here. Saddam enforced security through murder, rtorture and rape. Lovely.

    Saddam kept al Qaeda and Iran at bay through murder, torture and rape???


    In Vietnam, we weren't exactly promoting democracy, now were we?

    What the hell were we doing then? All I heard about was the fear that Vietnam would fall to communism if we didn't intervene.

    We do business with many communist countries today, including Vietnam!


    I think it is right to spread democracy - it is in our interest.

    As I have mentioned this opinion of mine is currently being challenged and I may change my mind. I am going to read "Just and Unjust Wars" by Michael Walzer. I think the crux of the situation is that he claims National Defense is the only justification and I am claiming National Interest is justification. Vietnam is a bad example of National Interest. There are many others like Mexico and the Phillipines.

    I do not happen to believe in our foreign policy of might makes right.

    I wasn't talking partisan wrt Democrats or Republicans. I was talking about being partisan in your anti-war stance against realists or outright pro-war folks. Maybe partisan is the wrong word for it.

    You mean my unrealistic stance that I cannot morally condone the trading of human lives to drive a hummer to the store and back?

    There are still tremendous challenges and it could all fail when we leave and stop paying, as you point out.

    That is the likely outcome from my observations.

    There is disagreement on the motivations and justification of invading in the first place. However, there are successes and we are there, involved, right now.

    The only successes relate to our occupation.


    So what is our best move? In this area, you could be more objective/realistic, in my opinion.

    To do what the Iraqi people are demanding, that we leave!

    Give some credit, the troops are working their ass off to make it a success. They do their best at avoiding civilian deaths. They work with Iraqis to bridge sectarian divides. They work 18-hour days, 7 days a week for months in theater. It is no wonder they come home with PTSD. They are real heroes.
    No doubt about that. They are doing the best they can with an impossible mission that they should never have been subjected to. How do we treat them for their heroic duty. We extend their tours of duty way beyond what they agreed to when they signed up, and we try to short change them on benefits when they return. If we truly honored our youth, we would not place them in harms way so we can maintain our slovenly lifestyles.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: U.S. troops hope Afghanistan sacrifices not in vain

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib
    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba
    We overthrew their government and helped select those they would vote on under our military occupation, and we use our full-occupation force to prop them up and protect them from their own people.

    You have a funny notion of freedom.
    Most untrue!!
    Then why do we still have 150,000 troops there?
    Are you seriously saying that because we have 150,000 troops there (actually I think it is 128,000 now), that that is evidence that we selected the candidates the Iraqis would vote on??? Get real.

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    Re: U.S. troops hope Afghanistan sacrifices not in vain

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    Are you seriously saying that because we have 150,000 troops there (actually I think it is 128,000 now), that that is evidence that we selected the candidates the Iraqis would vote on??? Get real.
    No, I am saying the only reason the government we helped set up is still standing is because of our heavily armed occupation force.

    If that were not the case, why would they still be needed there?
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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