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Thread: U.S. troops hope Afghanistan sacrifices not in vain

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    Re: U.S. troops hope Afghanistan sacrifices not in vain

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend_Hellh0und View Post
    iraqbodycount.org

    Excellent source! Iraq Body Count shows how innocent civilian deaths increased dramatically due to our invasion and occupation as opposed the levels before we attacked them.
    You also might read up on how we bombed dual use targets in Iraq during Gulf War 1, which followed by 10 years of sanctions resulted in the deaths of 100,000 innocent civilians. That of course was the biggest reason for the retaliation strike on 9/11.

    I don't condone killing of innocent people on either side.

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    Re: U.S. troops hope Afghanistan sacrifices not in vain

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    I do not think they get ignored. Practically all atrocities in the war, committed by Americans, came to light after the military reported on them. Abu Graib, murder in Haditha, etc.. Those responsible were found guilty and punished. That's to be admired. It certainly astonishes the Iraqis.

    Hmmm....... I thought Bush and Cheney were still walking around free men.
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    Re: U.S. troops hope Afghanistan sacrifices not in vain

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    You also might read up on how we bombed dual use targets in Iraq during Gulf War 1, which followed by 10 years of sanctions resulted in the deaths of 100,000 innocent civilians. That of course was the biggest reason for the retaliation strike on 9/11.

    as a tac-p I can take credit for much of those targets getting hit with such accuracy.


    10 years of UN sanctions that the UN and other countries used as an embezzlment scheme in the oil for palaces program..


    Why don't you hold them responsible? That's right. it doesn't jive with your anti-american rhetoric.




    I don't condone killing of innocent people on either side.

    "Your flag decal won't get you into heaven anymore!" - John Prine

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    We who served have been shot, wounded, and killed avoiding civillian casualites. We spend billions figuring out how to lower that rate as much as possible...

    THEY hide among school childeren and shoot at us.


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    Re: U.S. troops hope Afghanistan sacrifices not in vain

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Hmmm....... I thought Bush and Cheney were still walking around free men.
    They weren't responsible for the atrocities commited. They were only responsible for sending us there in the first place. Was that a crime?

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    Re: U.S. troops hope Afghanistan sacrifices not in vain

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    You have the link to that report? Could you post it. I'd like to read it.

    Most innocent deaths have been at the hands of the terrorists.
    Where is the proof most innocent deaths have been at the hands of terrorists???

    Article on the Rand Report to the Pentagon - "War on Terror" a failure!

    "Rand concludes, after studying 648 terrorist groups between 1968 and 2006, that military operations against such groups are among the least effective means of success, achieving the desired effect in only 7% of the cases. As Rand explains, "[a]gainst most terrorist groups . . . military force is usually too blunt an instrument." Moreover, "[t]he use of substantial U.S. military power against terror groups also runs a significant risk of turning the local population against the government by killing civilians."


    "Consequently, as the Rand study reports, the U.S. "war on terrorism" has been a failure in combating al Qaida, and indeed, that "[a]l Qaida's resurgence should trigger a fundamental rethinking of U.S. counterterrorism strategy." In the end, Rand concludes that the U.S. should rely much more on local military forces to police their own countries, and that this "means a light U.S. military footprint or none at all." If the politicians take this study seriously, and they should, they should abandon current plans for an increase in U.S. troop involvement in Afghanistan. Indeed, the U.S. military should be pulled out of Afghanistan altogether, just as it should be pulled out of Iraq."
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    Re: U.S. troops hope Afghanistan sacrifices not in vain

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    They weren't responsible for the atrocities commited. They were only responsible for sending us there in the first place. Was that a crime?
    According to some, yes, because Iraq was just a happy little well-governed country before we came along a mucked it all up.

    They were fine without us - they had everyone under control.

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    Re: U.S. troops hope Afghanistan sacrifices not in vain

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Its also what the Rand Report to the Pentagon concluded. It is why the terrorists have grown in numbers worldwide, despite our 8 year "war on terror"!

    Aw BS. You wouldn't give anything Rand has to say any time at all unless it agreed with your view that America is ignoble.


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    Re: U.S. troops hope Afghanistan sacrifices not in vain

    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Spiker View Post
    According to some, yes, because Iraq was just a happy little well-governed country before we came along a mucked it all up.

    They were fine without us - they had everyone under control.



    Hope you are being sarcastic here. Nevermind I get it......


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    Re: U.S. troops hope Afghanistan sacrifices not in vain

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend_Hellh0und View Post
    as a tac-p I can take credit for much of those targets getting hit with such accuracy.

    You must be very proud! My son left the Air Force after 13 years service due to our treatment of the Iraqi citizens.


    10 years of UN sanctions that the UN and other countries used as an embezzlment scheme in the oil for palaces program..

    ten years of sanctions that the US pushed for and enforced. We would not even allow in emergency water pumps in to get clean water to the civilians because we had targeted water treatment plants.


    Why don't you hold them responsible? That's right. it doesn't jive with your anti-american rhetoric.

    I do. Why do you deny responsibility.

    We who served have been shot, wounded, and killed avoiding civillian casualites. We spend billions figuring out how to lower that rate as much as possible...

    And still we killed more than the terrorists did on 9/11.

    THEY hide among school childeren and shoot at us.

    They do not have the benefit of the remote killing weapons of the most powerful nation on earth. They use the tactics they are forced to use to defend themselves.

    Your feigned outrage is betrayed by your anti-americanism.
    You like the name calling thing, huh?

    So because I expect the US to be on a higher moral ground than the enemy, that makes me anti-American?
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    Re: U.S. troops hope Afghanistan sacrifices not in vain

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Where is the proof most innocent deaths have been at the hands of terrorists???
    I don't have "proof" at my fingertips. I make the assertion based on observation that all of those suicide bombings on bridges during religious festivals and car bombings in markets kill large numbers of Iraqis and are most definitely caused by terrorists/insurgents.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Thank you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    "Rand concludes, after studying 648 terrorist groups between 1968 and 2006, that military operations against such groups are among the least effective means of success, achieving the desired effect in only 7% of the cases. As Rand explains, "[a]gainst most terrorist groups . . . military force is usually too blunt an instrument." Moreover, "[t]he use of substantial U.S. military power against terror groups also runs a significant risk of turning the local population against the government by killing civilians."
    You posted this before and I commented. This goes to 2006 and so leaves out the publication of the new Army Counterinsurgency Field Manual, the Surge, and the implementation of the new counterinsurgency strategy in Iraq. It goes through the breakout of civil war in Iraq and so obviously counts it a failure. The rule is "less is more".

    The observations of the report make perfect sense. You cannot oppose an insurgency with direct military force. You have to protect the population (the battlefield), separate the insurgents from the innocents and their potential support and discredit their activities and establish your trustworthiness. They have done this successfully in Iraq now in 2009.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    "Consequently, as the Rand study reports, the U.S. "war on terrorism" has been a failure in combating al Qaida, and indeed, that "[a]l Qaida's resurgence should trigger a fundamental rethinking of U.S. counterterrorism strategy." In the end, Rand concludes that the U.S. should rely much more on local military forces to police their own countries, and that this "means a light U.S. military footprint or none at all." If the politicians take this study seriously, and they should, they should abandon current plans for an increase in U.S. troop involvement in Afghanistan. Indeed, the U.S. military should be pulled out of Afghanistan altogether, just as it should be pulled out of Iraq."
    I disagree with the conclusions in this paragraph. It says: "means a light military footprint or none at all". If you are going to do counterinsurgency, you need the force capable of protecting the population. If local forces are up to the job then that is GREAT! Otherwise, our forces will need to be deployed to protect, as well as to train the new local forces.

    The Surge in Iraq, a move that this report was opposed to, succeeded. If I were you I would stop using this report in your arguments here.

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