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Thread: U.S. troops hope Afghanistan sacrifices not in vain

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    Re: U.S. troops hope Afghanistan sacrifices not in vain

    Quote Originally Posted by kansaswhig View Post
    CBS, my fault. I was thinking about Haditha.



    From that timeline, it seems that even is as you suggested rumsfeld wanted to sit on it. The red cross and AI already knew about it, no>?
    You should try to remember, ideas are conveyed by researching information, vetting sources, and confirming said information. Not by regurgitating talking points given to you by your "news" station.
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    Re: U.S. troops hope Afghanistan sacrifices not in vain

    Quote Originally Posted by goldendog View Post
    Translate this TD...

    "That's why I said to the Taliban in Afghanistan: Get rid of al Qaeda; see, you're harboring al Qaeda. Remember this is a place where they trained -- al Qaeda trained thousands of people in Afghanistan. And the Taliban, I guess, just didn't believe me. And as a result of the United States military, Taliban no longer is in existence. And the people of Afghanistan are now free. (Applause.)"

    George W Bush
    September 27, 2004

    This was part of his great "Mission Accomplished" Speech..
    The Mission Accomplished speech was May 1, 2003

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    Re: U.S. troops hope Afghanistan sacrifices not in vain

    Quote Originally Posted by kansaswhig View Post
    The Mission Accomplished speech was May 1, 2003


    .......



    It was the ships mission anyways.
    Last edited by ReverendHellh0und; 10-29-09 at 04:05 PM.
    You should try to remember, ideas are conveyed by researching information, vetting sources, and confirming said information. Not by regurgitating talking points given to you by your "news" station.
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    Re: U.S. troops hope Afghanistan sacrifices not in vain

    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    Good lord, are you really that dense?
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    Re: U.S. troops hope Afghanistan sacrifices not in vain

    excellent points you bring out!
    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    Great response, thanks!
    We have a bad track record this half-century, for sure.
    the track record for nation building has been very bad we agree.
    I think there is a difference between people directly killed by the actions of our soldiers and people killed by the terrorists.
    i look at terrorists differently than many in the US. i see someone committing acts in defense of there nation as maybe the word would be self appointed militia. they believe they are defending their way of life.
    others i see as revolutionaries that who believe by force they can change their nation. their intent is to overthrow the powers that be. (much as the coalition may have been thinking)
    the revolutionary thought process may appear to be terrorist but it is not. it is an assault to say, overthrow Saddam Hussein.
    a terrorist would be like the people that flew planes into the World Trade Centers. that was to inflict pain and suffering to a different nation. to create havoc from outside the shores and try and change that nations policy. that is what terrorists do.
    when i look at the invasion of Iraq. i see it as nation building from outside. i see it as enforced change of that nation. i see it as an incursion of what Iraq was about. it looks like an effort to have them in the end look like us.

    in my definitions above this looks far more like a terrorist act than a friendly gesture. it is the worlds way of knocking down Iraq's World Trade Centers. i do not blame just the US for this invasion.
    I am cognizant of the fact that those killed by the terrorists would not have been killed if we didn't invade, but we are not directly responsible for their deaths.
    no the US is not directly responsible. but as you look, had the coalition not been present many of the acts of self styled militia and fringe elements would never have occurred. so the blood splashes in all directions. everyone gets dirty.
    I also think that the majority of people that our soldiers killed were bad guys and not innocent people, although I am sure a lot of innocent life was taken by bombing, mistaken identity, poor judgment, and counterinsurgency.
    this is a tough point. i really believe that the coalition forces tried their hardest to avoid the death of innocents. the problem is that a great deal of collateral damage does happen. in a guerrilla tactic's siege it is often hard to know the true enemy. it could be anyone. the Iraqi defenders would as i stated put innocents in the way. (example: a tactic used against Israel was for a radar station to be set in a hospital. how does Israel take out that instillation without harming innocents.)
    the question reverts back to should the coalition forces be in Iraq in the first place?
    Iraq had a power structure in place that extended past the Army and included the police and intelligence services and local government. This power structure was abusive and murderous to its people. It takes blood to remove the structure and form a new one. Is it worth it? I think so.
    Iraq was over run by thugs and bad management. i do not deny that. i realized the plight of the people that live there. i was there between conflicts. the situation was horrible. the infrastructure was a mess. there were food shortages and bad water. i agree that this was a horrible situation.

    nothing was ever done by anyone really to help rebuild Iraq after the first Gulf Crisis. this is much the same a Germany after WWI. had these countries been assisted maybe the problems that happened after could have been avoided. as i recall the people of Iraq and the Kurds were asking for help to fix the nation at the time. the coalition walked out and left them to suffer.
    It was worth it when we threw off the English power structure, both in 1775 and in 1812. It took blood to save lives.
    Revolution to change is far different than outside forces making the change for you. the American Revolution and French Revolution are different cases.
    There were good reasons to be in country. I think that there were multiple reasons given to go. I think there was one primary objective. I think there were multiple secondary objectives that hinged on the primary objective.
    i really believe and here we may disagree the primary objective is the statement get even with Saddam.
    Was Bush killing his people and threatening his neighbors and not in a Democracy but the leader for life with no way to change him? Bring it on!
    i did not say he was. that was an example of how right would it be if outside forces came to your land to change your way of life. you would not like it as i see from your response.

    Reasons:
    - WMD development threat
    - Treatment of citizens
    - Iraqi cooperation with terrorists
    - UN violations
    - To transform into a democracy, because it is geopolitically important and it has the capacity for a democracy high literacy, developed economy, etc

    and the primary objective was:
    - To transform into a democracy

    Secondary objectives (long-term):
    - Influence Iran as a neighboring democracy
    - Influence Saudi Arabia as a neighboring democracy
    - Become a regional leader
    your first list could be ascribed to Korea. why have they not been attacked?
    much on the list could be set up for other nations as well. why have they not been attacked.Iraq was a choice made for what i believe certain reasons.

    the bolded: nation building is wrong. why do these people need to act as you do in your country? they have a different culture.
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    Re: U.S. troops hope Afghanistan sacrifices not in vain

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    9-11 highlighted the importance of stopping nuclear proliferation. That is the only connection.

    As far as Afghanistan goes, there is a limit to how many people our logistics system can support. There was also a limit of effective missions. I think we were at that point.

    Al Qaeda was in Pakistan and we couldn't very well invade those mountain highlands could we? We had limited missions.



    I think the Bush Doctrine will be used again. Not be every president. We aren't going to start invading countries willy-nilly. The country in question has to have a bad track record (17 UN resolution violations...), has to be of geopolitical importance to its region, has to be in our national interest, and has to have the capacity for democratization.
    Korea was and is a larger nuclear threat than Iraq ever was yet they remain untouched. why is that?
    The flame that is between us could set every soul on fire. I would love to take that heat and let's fill the whole world with desire.
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    Re: U.S. troops hope Afghanistan sacrifices not in vain

    Quote Originally Posted by katiegrrl0 View Post
    Korea was and is a larger nuclear threat than Iraq ever was yet they remain untouched. why is that?
    No oil?

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    Re: U.S. troops hope Afghanistan sacrifices not in vain

    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    Yes, the age old farcical notion that if we just kept to ourselves, the world would be a better place.

    But yet, in historical context it begs the question; how did that work for us in WWI? How about WWII?

    Carry on; your uniformed assertions about our role in history are about as informed as your opinions are about the economy.
    People like to go back to WWI and WWII both could have been avoided. WWII certainly needed never to happen.
    The flame that is between us could set every soul on fire. I would love to take that heat and let's fill the whole world with desire.
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    Re: U.S. troops hope Afghanistan sacrifices not in vain

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend_Hellh0und View Post
    From that timeline, it seems that even is as you suggested rumsfeld wanted to sit on it. The red cross and AI already knew about it, no>?
    They key was the photos that were on the cameras from the guards. Rumsfeld knew just prior to 2004, I believe, though he denies it. It's highly unlikely that the four-stars or Sanchez was tracking something that Rumsfeld didn't know about. He didn't run that kind of ship. He definetely knew about it by Mid-January 04.

    Jan. 14-15: Gen. John Abizaid, chief of Central Command, tells Gen. Richard Meyers, chairman of the Joint Chiefs, of the investigation and says it is a 'big deal'.
    CENTCOM and JCS know, Rumsfeld knew. It's only logic. Myers kept nothing from him.

    who leaked the photos?
    Last edited by kansaswhig; 10-29-09 at 04:13 PM.

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    Re: U.S. troops hope Afghanistan sacrifices not in vain

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend_Hellh0und View Post
    .......



    It was the ships mission anyways.
    I'm pretty sure the banner was in reference to the war...

    Maybe I'm an idiot.

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