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U.S. troops hope Afghanistan sacrifices not in vain

katiegrrl0 said:
well if your own citizens do this than it is time to take a hard look at what you are doing.

well the US has done good. i do not deny that. i do weigh it against the evil and you are pretty much like all the rest. some good some bad. it all depends on if you count the bad against the good. seems as if the rest of the world and some of your citizens have a bad opinion of you guys.
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What bad would you say we have done?
 
katiegrrl0 said:
it is not your place to spread anything in a sovereign nation.
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Why not? Is the sovereignty of a brutal dictator a shield that protects him, by international law? That's ridiculous.

katiegrrl0 said:
it is up to the US to mind it's own business in my eyes. you may think otherwise. your country has problems of it's own. why are you worried about someone else. you also screwed up your attempt to capture Bin Laden by dividing your forces and fighting in two places. had you kept the manpower in one local maybe you would have accomplished your goal. it was Bin Laden as i recall.
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We are worried about the world, as it's superpower. We did not screw up spliting our forces. We could not have placed 150,000 troops in Afghanistan. Plus, Bin Laden is in Pakistan. Should we invade Pakistan?
 
reefedjib said:
It is a big risk that democracy will fold. If the Iraqis want us, we will stay for decades to help it stabilize. The insurgents wanted jobs that we provided. The Iraqi government has to keep paying them.



And those that committed them are being punished for it. Big difference.



They know. They were being killed under Saddam. It is the terrorists that are killing them.
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i am going to take the bolded part. is it not up to the nation to do something to change the nation. democracy is not a gift. it is never appreciated unless it is earned. the forefathers of your nation knew that. they farther time takes you away from said independence and the formulation of your nation the less people appreciate what you have.

you can not hand out democracy and freedom. it needs to be earned.

it was good that some who committed war crimes were sentenced. though not all. but it was a start.

the Iraqi's will keep paying them because if they don't the democracy that was handed to them will fail and fall.
 
I remember a story that was supposed to have been true that said, just after WWII DeGaulle told Eisenhower that he wanted all US troops out of France immediately & Eisenhower is reported to have said tat ....."You better get some shovels then."
 
katiegrrl0 said:
the coup in Iran the coup in Chile the attack on Iraq. the manipulation of many other nations by coup or other measures. they all seem to work against you.
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We were in a life & death stuggle with the Sovit Union for most of those and you can't always use the Marquis of Queensbury fair fighting rules when in a struggle for your life.
 
reefedjib said:
Why not? Is the sovereignty of a brutal dictator a shield that protects him, by international law? That's ridiculous.



We are worried about the world, as it's superpower. We did not screw up spliting our forces. We could not have placed 150,000 troops in Afghanistan. Plus, Bin Laden is in Pakistan. Should we invade Pakistan?
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the nation needs to be ready to make an overthrow. we were the overthrow. that does not a revolution make. they are all set up now for the next tyrant that takes the controls.

he is in Pakistan now. he wasn't when you let him go. you did screw up you lost both positions. in Iraq you will lose the second you pull out. another Vietnam. in Afghanistan the number of troops needed to be higher now you are losing control of that as well.
 
American first said:
I remember a story that was supposed to have been true that said, just after WWII DeGaulle told Eisenhower that he wanted all US troops out of France immediately & Eisenhower is reported to have said tat ....."You better get some shovels then."
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i believe that that is true.
 
American first said:
We were in a life & death stuggle with the Sovit Union for most of those and you can't always use the Marquis of Queensbury fair fighting rules when in a struggle for your life.
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those coups had little to do with the Soviet Union. they were for the US. Cuba was another one the US supported Batista. it allowed Castro to take over. another support of a bad leader that the US was doing.
 
katiegrrl0 said:
those coups had little to do with the Soviet Union. they were for the US. Cuba was another one the US supported Batista. it allowed Castro to take over. another support of a bad leader that the US was doing.
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Almost everything we did prior to 1989 was with the Soviet Union in mind.
 
American first said:
Almost everything we did prior to 1989 was with the Soviet Union in mind.
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this is true. the problem is when you are not thinking clearly you make a lot of mistakes and the US did just that.

i was still living there during that time.
 
katiegrrl0 said:
i am going to take the bolded part. is it not up to the nation to do something to change the nation. democracy is not a gift. it is never appreciated unless it is earned. the forefathers of your nation knew that. they farther time takes you away from said independence and the formulation of your nation the less people appreciate what you have.

you can not hand out democracy and freedom. it needs to be earned.
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katiegrrl0 said:
the nation needs to be ready to make an overthrow. we were the overthrow. that does not a revolution make. they are all set up now for the next tyrant that takes the controls.
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Why do you seem convinced that a nation must achieve democracy through revolution? Germany and Japan are fine examples of the introduction of democracy after WW2.

For sure the Iraqis appreciate the cost of building a democracy. They have earned it. The blood of all of those innocents tell the story and they will not be forgotten.

It is up to the Iraqis to prevent the next tyrant from grabbing the controls. We will be there decades to help them, just like Germany and Japan to this day.
 
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katiegrrl0 said:
it is not your place to spread anything in a sovereign nation. it is up to the US to mind it's own business in my eyes. you may think otherwise. your country has problems of it's own. why are you worried about someone else. you also screwed up your attempt to capture Bin Laden by dividing your forces and fighting in two places. had you kept the manpower in one local maybe you would have accomplished your goal. it was Bin Laden as i recall.
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Is it wrong to spread reproductive health info a la Planned Parenthood centers around the world?
 
bhkad said:
Is it wrong to spread reproductive health info a la Planned Parenthood centers around the world?
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you were saying spread democracy into other nations. it would be wrong to spread reproductive health unless asked for yes. it is wrong to spread your type of governance system to other nations by force.
 
reefedjib said:
Why do you seem convinced that a nation must achieve democracy through revolution? Germany and Japan are fine examples of the introduction of democracy after WW2.

For sure the Iraqis appreciate the cost of building a democracy. They have earned it. The blood of all of those innocents tell the story and they will not be forgotten.

It is up to the Iraqis to prevent the next tyrant from grabbing the controls. We will be there decades to help them, just like Germany and Japan to this day.
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i'm not convinced of that. i never said that. i am convinced that the people of a nation have to be part of that movement to oust the leaders. in Iraq the US ousted the leaders and helped select the replacements.

ask the families about the blood of the innocents. they will tell you differently.

yes it is up to the Iraqi's to hold onto what they have if that is what they choose to do. if not be prepared to stay 100 years to maintain the peace. it might be easier to make them a state.
 
katiegrrl0 said:
i have in fact talked about your quote several times. what do you want me to say about it?
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You have done no such thing.


i do not excuse Bin Laden i would like to see where i said that. please show me?
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You said something to the effect about how we should listend to what Bin Laden wants.


I responded by saying in his letter to america, among other things we have to come to Islam.


you moved on without answering.


i make fun of a huge military that can't find him.
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Which demonstrates a profound ignorance of real life.


[quote[
i did not again ignore your quote. i didn't think you required a dissertation on said quote. [/quote]


Yes you did, you ignored it, because you know its true. Pacifism without strenght (you) is nothing more than a lamb ready for the slaughter....



i detest your brand of religion. you preach like a zealot and act as a non believer. you are such a joke. i don't know how you can even stand yourself. or those around you can stand you. what will you do when the family finds out how full of **** you are. you won't be able to type your way out of that.
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I am good with my god, as are those around me including my family, whatever thier faith or lack of faith is. :shrug:

I see only one "zealot" here, and that is you shorty.....


You seem to be getting upset. Chill, it's all good my ex-American friend!


you can call me what you like. i don't think you understand anything. i have been sitting here laughing at you. that is not loss of composure. it is sadness that anyone as pathetic as you actually does exist. that is the sad part.
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Your spelled "Greatness" wrong shorty...... It's ok though, most shorties swoon in the presence that is the Greatness that is the Good Reverend!


:2wave:
 
katiegrrl0 said:
it is not your place to spread anything in a sovereign nation. it is up to the US to mind it's own business in my eyes. you may think otherwise. your country has problems of it's own. why are you worried about someone else. you also screwed up your attempt to capture Bin Laden by dividing your forces and fighting in two places. had you kept the manpower in one local maybe you would have accomplished your goal. it was Bin Laden as i recall.
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Lets look at reality.... A man is killing and raping the women of a village...



Your pacifism gives that woman consolation, a bottle of water, and empathy every time it happens....



The Good Reverend's kind of pacifism puts a bullet in the head of said man...


Who has done more for peace?
 
katiegrrl0 said:
i'm not convinced of that. i never said that. i am convinced that the people of a nation have to be part of that movement to oust the leaders. in Iraq the US ousted the leaders and helped select the replacements.

ask the families about the blood of the innocents. they will tell you differently.

yes it is up to the Iraqi's to hold onto what they have if that is what they choose to do. if not be prepared to stay 100 years to maintain the peace. it might be easier to make them a state.
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Ok, so it is ok to invade a sovereign nation, run by a dictator of one flavor or another who treats his people poorly, in order to introduce democracy, as long as the people participate in creating that democracy. That works for me.

In Iraq, this requirement has been met. The people wholeheartedly participated and continue to participate in the life of the democracy. How many different publications are there in Iraq of one political straw or another?

In Afghanistan, not so much participation.

In Iraq, I expect the families of those who have lost their lives are deeply saddened and pissed off at the situation. Many probably say they wish we hadn't come there to create such chaos. Underneath, many are glad we came but want the killing to stop.
 
Reverend_Hellh0und said:
This story has some anecdotal stories here, but it follows the same thing I and many other veterans have been saying about Obama's fiddling while Afghanistan burns.... Troop moral is suffering, and I hate to read stories like this. Obama needs to make a decision now.
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If justifying troop casualties with continued escalation was the deciding factor in conflict, wars would never end. The military will never ask for a reduction of force, it is not their nature.
We are in a difficult quandry in Afghanistan, how to insure AlQaeda does not expand, yet not get involved in running a chronically anarchic country. Staying just to honor the soldiers who died there is foolish. Obama's way forward in Afghanistan is more complicated than a simple decision, it involves turning the ship of state, which is much more complicated than just changing your mind.
 
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WillRockwell said:
If justifying troop casualties with continued escalation was the deciding factor in conflict, wars would never end. The military will never ask for a reduction of force, it is not their nature.
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This is not a position I put forth.

Actually my position at this point is this current president is too indecisive and lacks the backbone to prosecute this war successfully. I am for withrdrawal at this point.


We are in a difficult quandry in Afghanistan, how to insure AlQaeda does not expand, yet not get involved in running a chronically anarchic country. Staying just to honor the soldiers who died there is foolish. Obama's way forward in Afghanistan is more complicated than a simple decision, it involves turning the ship of state, which is much more complicated than just changing your mind.
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Again, I demonstrated that your strawman was an argument I never made.
 
katiegrrl0 said:
this is true i agree. as a soldier joins he enables leaders to conduct war. if there is no military because of lack of interest than we all win.
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A lack of interest was what resulted in 9-11, the isolationist theory long dead, one wonders why anyone would be promoting it today.
 
katiegrrl0 said:
this is true i agree. as a soldier joins he enables leaders to conduct war. if there is no military because of lack of interest than we all win.
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What happens when the other tribe does not have this issue?



Talk about believing in unicorns and santa clause! :lol:
 
katiegrrl0 said:
the only retarded notions i see put forth here are those that support the troops of the US following unfit orders to invade nations. they are as you say not supportive of the Nazi for following unfit orders. so they need to make up their minds as to what they do believe.

the other retarded notion is the fact that these posting support Iraq for the most part but they did not support Russia moving troops against Georgia. i was there and saw that one. i see that these posters like to look at the events in history with a jaded eye. the US seems to get a break no matter how they act. the rest of the world must tow the mark.

i would say that those are pretty retarded. obviously you support the same notions as the rest so i would say that you must be in the retarded clan as well. make up your mind and know what you think is right and wrong.

i see it all in very black and white terms. if it is wrong for one to invade it is wrong for all. if it is wrong for one to have nuclear weapons it is wrong for all. i am consistent in what i say whereas the morons that you chose to defend have not a clue as to what they are defending.

in one case this is right in the next case it is wrong. somehow posters need to pick a side and stay on it.

the bolded statement is what i speak of. it was okay in your mind that the US could invade Iraq and has been shown do inhuman things. yet the Nazi's are wrong for doing the same thing. how is that logic? how do you justify what you are trying to say with a foot on each side of the fence.

the Nazi's as well as the US soldiers could have said no we will not do such things. neither did they are both equally as guilty for murder and crimes against humanity. one you defend because of blind patriotism and the other you condemn because you know that is correct.

please make up your mind as to what is right and what is wrong. it will help you in debate to be consistent in your points as i have been in this entire thread.

i use the examples i use to make points where people really are unsure what they believe. it seems since only you attempted to answer the Nazi question at least know the difference of right and wrong. the others avoided it because their response would have been made to be as stupid as they are had they said the Nazi's were wrong.
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I already told you why perhaps Nazi soldiers followed rules. It's not my fault you can't read. For our side, we have a volunteer military, people choose to join and agree to contract. President is Commander in Chief. If you want to talk about how we can employ our military so freely against other countries without formal Declaration of War, I'll entertain that argument. But our military has ways for people of moral objection to be moved around. However, the basis of any military could not remain if people were free to come and go as they please. And I wouldn't want to pay someone to do nothing and then run away when needed.

You're using absurd examples of the most polarizing and extreme case you can. Trying to construct an appeal to emotion. OH NOES, the Nazis! And then you try to claim that people have supported the Nazis and their actions. All I said was don't be dumb.
 
Reverend_Hellh0und said:
You have done no such thing.






You said something to the effect about how we should listend to what Bin Laden wants.


I responded by saying in his letter to america, among other things we have to come to Islam.


you moved on without answering.






Which demonstrates a profound ignorance of real life.


[quote[
i did not again ignore your quote. i didn't think you required a dissertation on said quote.
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Yes you did, you ignored it, because you know its true. Pacifism without strenght (you) is nothing more than a lamb ready for the slaughter....







I am good with my god, as are those around me including my family, whatever thier faith or lack of faith is. :shrug:

I see only one "zealot" here, and that is you shorty.....


You seem to be getting upset. Chill, it's all good my ex-American friend!






Your spelled "Greatness" wrong shorty...... It's ok though, most shorties swoon in the presence that is the Greatness that is the Good Reverend!


:2wave:[/QUOTE]

as i suggested maybe a good reading class would help you. you may even want to set down the crayons and have mom or dad read what i posted to you. they may even be able to help you decide what the **** you really stand for. as it is right now you have no idea what the hell you think and have no clue how to share this mess with others.

in the bold. when you want to criticize someone you may want to write a proper sentence you moron.
 
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