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Thread: Iraq Ministries Targeted in Car Bombings; Over 130 Dead

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    Re: Iraq Ministries Targeted in Car Bombings; Over 130 Dead

    Quote Originally Posted by GySgt View Post
    You'd have argument to. Afgfhanistan is a mess of ethnic diversity organized more into clans than tribes. And there is a historical Persian root to be found. But, Afghanistan has had Arab mentality since the late 70s when Saudi Arabia began to establish wahabbist schools. The invasion of the Soviets turned Afghanistan into a Sunni country. The Tali-ban and Al-Queda are Sunni Arab organizations.
    Everything I've read by Afghanis say this is not so. Taliban have had training/funds from Arab and Chechen sources. They are hardly taking on a Chechen mentality. The insurgency in Afghanistan is primarily nationalistic and anti foreign. They will accept help from whoever, but once in control they will pay little heed to the Arabs. They will, however, pay heed to the Pakis.

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    Re: Iraq Ministries Targeted in Car Bombings; Over 130 Dead

    Quote Originally Posted by Arch Enemy View Post

    I see radicalism within the Middle-East as not a bunch of fanatics leading fanatics, but a bunch of intelligent (ultimately secularists) evil people who twist the religion for their goals.
    I don't know if A.Q. leadership has actually read the Kuran... they totally got the wrong message of Jihad, and totally forgot the part that suicide is blasphemous... especially against follow Muslims and Ahl al-Katrib.
    I sort of agree, but I think they started out as religious nationalists, by which I mean they were pro Islam/anti west. They saw their own govts as faux islam and pro west. This led them to use religious nationalism as their driving force, but they knew that emphasizing the Islam part would sell better to the masses. When their own govts cut them off at the knees they focused more on the anti west aspect, which forced them to spin an: " our way is the only way" mantra. The sunni insurgency in Iraq is simply after power, but they recruit their cannon fodder through religious mendacity.

    But under it all is a deep wish to return to the "glory days" of Empire Islam, which is a power issue at the core of a religious belief: "we were briliant because we followed the proper path, and the way back is to do so again." Which sells better than: "we can get powerful again if we just learn from the Jews."

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    Re: Iraq Ministries Targeted in Car Bombings; Over 130 Dead

    Quote Originally Posted by GySgt View Post
    Absolutely. But it's work they have to do. Iraq is the success story the Arab Middle East have been needing for decades and decades and they don't even see it. The last thing they need is another failure.

    1) They first tried to rebuke the West as if they could be the only region on earth untouched by globalization and progress.

    2) Then they tried pan-Arabism in an attempt to unite Arabs in policies and comraderie. This translated into further embarrassment with the Suez Canal War and shattered the idea of Arab unity.

    3) By the early 70's Arab governments finally began to accept the Israel in their midst and the benefits of being friendly with the West vice the Soviet Union.

    Despite temporary set backs in history, Turkey, Egypt, Syria, and Lebanon are all Muslim nations that have progressed and moved on into the modern world. Of these, Turkey started out on its own by abolishing the Sultan in the '20s (thereby ending hundreds of years of Islamic caliphates) and embarking on democracy and westernization. The most progressive being Egypt and Turkey and those are on the fringes of Islam and removed from the Sunni heartland. I believe there is something to this. We often hear how horrible westernization was for the Middle East, but the two Arab nations that were never colonized? Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan. And look at them.

    Iraq's population is perfectly positioned to prove once and for all to every single person on earth whether or not a mixture of tribes can get it right in this region. Given Lebanon's attempts gone bad in the 20th century, Iraq is the last of them to try to get it right. Can Middle Eastern populations exist in peace without the brutal oppressions of a dictator or brutal oppressions of a theocracy? Given the chance to progress and create opportunity for all will they opt to slaughter and murder in tribal allegiance above all else?

    Iraq is going to change the world for better or for worse. It's not just a single country with an isolated problem. It is going to prove something to everybody. And the last thing Arabs need is proof that they aren't worth anything other than strict control and oppression. We already know that Sunni Arabs in Saudi Arabia are more upset over the choices their elite make for them rather than their oppression. But can Arabs create a prosperous democratic nation for all Muslims no matter the tribe? The answer will be what they do in Iraq. The majority is Shia. But the Sunni Arabs within will ultimately decide what comes next. And so will the Sunni governments that surround it.
    How exactly has Syria progressed? Its no less totalitarian than Saddam was. Eygpt is hardly switzerland either

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    Re: Iraq Ministries Targeted in Car Bombings; Over 130 Dead

    AQ and Taliban are just a dehumanizing campaign. Their side has many non-humans. And we must stop them.

    Most insurgents in Afghanistan not religiously motivated, military reports say - The Boston Globe

    Nearly all of the insurgents battling US and NATO troops in Afghanistan are not religiously motivated Taliban and Al Qaeda warriors, but a new generation of tribal fighters vying for control of territory, mineral wealth, and smuggling routes, according to summaries of new US intelligence reports

    Some of the major insurgent groups, including one responsible for a spate of recent American casualties, actually opposed the Talibanís harsh Islamic government in Afghanistan during the 1990s, according to the reports, described by US officials under the condition they not be identified.

    US commanders and politicians often loosely refer to the enemy as the Taliban or Al Qaeda, giving rise to the image of holy warriors seeking to spread a fundamentalist form of Islam. But the mostly ethnic Pashtun fighters are often deeply connected by family and social ties to the valleys and mountains where they are fighting, and they see themselves as opposing the United States be cause it is an occupying power, the officials and analysts said.

    We are not contemplating sending many troops to stop fanatical zealots. We are thinking about sending more to fight against people, who a huge majority, that feel they need to fight for their territory. That we are invading them.


    Even the way we use the word "insurgency" is almost propaganda.

    Insurgent
    1. the state or condition of being insurgent.
    2. insurrection against an existing government, usually one's own, by a group not recognized as having the status of a belligerent.
    3. rebellion within a group, as by members against leaders.
    What happened to battling terrorists? Are we their to kill there spreaders of terror? Or their territory resistors?

    Terrorist
    1. a person, usually a member of a group, who uses or advocates terrorism.
    2. a person who terrorizes or frightens others.
    3. (formerly) a member of a political group in Russia aiming at the demoralization of the government by terror.
    4. an agent or partisan of the revolutionary tribunal during the Reign of Terror in France.
    So to be an insurgent against the UK was ok during the times of the founding of America. But then we invade non-guilty countries we start off by calling them terrorists. Now our focus is using terrorism on our part to scare those who would rebel against the government we are vying to establish there. If America is invaded by aliens/NWO/China/or Jew robots is it wrong to be a rebel/insurgent against them? (Whatever form of rebellion is sought) Aren't TEA party insurgents by the true deffinition of the word? How much longer till they are dehuminized to the extent of AQ?

    How much longer till we can point at a massive group of people on our soil and say,

    "Because of the extreme actions of a tiny percent of people in that crowd it will be safer to kill them all."



    Merging terrorist and insurgent becomes a scary thing. And we use the word as if it is one in the same in this country.

    I would like for someone to pull up a insurgent terrorist's kill count and American drone kill count so we can compare who is spreading more terror in our occupied territories. If a huge base of people want to be against our government and we iron hand them into obedience... Are we not the actual terrorists? If one of them kills our brother is it right to kill them? Their brother, their daughter, sister, and grandma?
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    Re: Iraq Ministries Targeted in Car Bombings; Over 130 Dead

    Quote Originally Posted by Arch Enemy View Post
    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/26/wo..._r=1&ref=world

    There's still quite a bit of work to be done.
    You are so incorrect; it is israel's fault, and if only the jews would stop oppressing the pals then the 1.5 billion muslims would enjoy a worldwide Reformation and would cease such violence...oh it is also the US' fault because of its foreign policy, didn't you hear?
    Last edited by rogerredy; 10-27-09 at 10:03 PM.

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    Re: Iraq Ministries Targeted in Car Bombings; Over 130 Dead

    Quote Originally Posted by Red_Dave View Post
    How exactly has Syria progressed? Its no less totalitarian than Saddam was. Eygpt is hardly switzerland either
    Well, gee. Germany is hardly Switzerland. But who called anything Switzerland? Do things have to be "Switzerland" before they show progress? The problem people have in the west is that if it doesn't reflect Vermont or London it isn't progressed. Hell even a 4 year old has progressed.

    Syria was one of our biggest supporters during the Gulf War. They have steadily moved forward in national development and sought closer ties with America. Their political system was becoming more and more lenient and tolerant towards expression. ...Then President Bush called them all terrorists (a minor temporary bruising).

    And Egypt? Egypt is the most advanced and modern Arab state in the region. They host Operation: Brightstar every two years so that western and Arab militaries can "play." Their politicial system continues to push forward and the most outspoken critics for Islamic reform in the region come from here. Anwar Sadat was even expelled from the Arab League for his determination to propell Egypt forward and beyond Saudi Arabia's wishes for the region.

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    Re: Iraq Ministries Targeted in Car Bombings; Over 130 Dead

    Quote Originally Posted by GySgt View Post
    Well, gee. Germany is hardly Switzerland. But who called anything Switzerland? Do things have to be "Switzerland" before they show progress? The problem people have in the west is that if it doesn't reflect Vermont or London it isn't progressed. Hell even a 4 year old has progressed.

    Syria was one of our biggest supporters during the Gulf War. They have steadily moved forward in national development and sought closer ties with America. Their political system was becoming more and more lenient and tolerant towards expression. ...Then President Bush called them all terrorists (a minor temporary bruising).

    And Egypt? Egypt is the most advanced and modern Arab state in the region. They host Operation: Brightstar every two years so that western and Arab militaries can "play." Their politicial system continues to push forward and the most outspoken critics for Islamic reform in the region come from here. Anwar Sadat was even expelled from the Arab League for his determination to propell Egypt forward and beyond Saudi Arabia's wishes for the region.
    And both are run by Dictatorships. So as I said earlier if Iraq is to end up "stable" and "friendly" they will need to do what works in the ME: run the govt. via a Dictatorship backed by a loyal military. The only way to get a loyal military in Iraq is to fill it with "one's own cultural/religious group." That means the Kurds will go theer own way, and the Sunnis/Shia will be in a civil war, and the Persians and Arabs will be backing sides.

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    Re: Iraq Ministries Targeted in Car Bombings; Over 130 Dead

    Quote Originally Posted by tjinta ibis View Post
    And both are run by Dictatorships.

    So as I said earlier if Iraq is to end up "stable" and "friendly" they will need to do what works in the ME: run the govt. via a Dictatorship backed by a loyal military. The only way to get a loyal military in Iraq is to fill it with "one's own cultural/religious group." That means the Kurds will go theer own way, and the Sunnis/Shia will be in a civil war, and the Persians and Arabs will be backing sides.
    Unfortunately, what you just stated should be obvious to all. But despite the dictatorships in Egypt and Syria, there is a sense of democracy on lower levels and on bureacratic systems. For this culture, it seems to have to start this way. Lebanon started out acknowledging their tribal differences and tried to create a government where power and government position was shared and sisrtibuted amongst the tribe's representation. They wound up slaughtering each other and today seek a democratic form of governance. There is a process to go through. Ours is not the only way. But we have to consider that the U.S. came from a region that very much consisted of kings, kaisers, and czars - dictatorships. Even Europe had a process.

    The greatest problem and hinderance towards peace in this region is the unnatural European drawn borders that divide and smash together tribes. After that it is a matter of reform.
    Last edited by MSgt; 11-01-09 at 03:29 PM.

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    Re: Iraq Ministries Targeted in Car Bombings; Over 130 Dead

    Quote Originally Posted by tjinta ibis View Post
    I sort of agree, but I think they started out as religious nationalists, by which I mean they were pro Islam/anti west. They saw their own govts as faux islam and pro west. This led them to use religious nationalism as their driving force, but they knew that emphasizing the Islam part would sell better to the masses. When their own govts cut them off at the knees they focused more on the anti west aspect, which forced them to spin an: " our way is the only way" mantra. The sunni insurgency in Iraq is simply after power, but they recruit their cannon fodder through religious mendacity.
    I would argue that it's only a facade that their bound together under the flag of Islam. Their hatred of Westernization is the only glue that is holding them together. You usually find people together because of similar dislikes, and not similar likes.
    But under it all is a deep wish to return to the "glory days" of Empire Islam, which is a power issue at the core of a religious belief: "we were briliant because we followed the proper path, and the way back is to do so again." Which sells better than: "we can get powerful again if we just learn from the Jews."
    The schematics of this modern Islamic Empire requires much more than repelling the American intruders within it's borders, much more than exterminating the Jewish state. The Islamic Empire requires a large-scale extermination of opposing views; pretty much the 99% of the Muslim world that does not share the view of A.Q. and Taliban will have to go.
    --- It's almost mental illness that those who truly believe in this theory suffer from. It would truly require the powers of God to make it happen.

    I personally don't think that Bin Laden and his Goons believe it. But, the Pashtuns whom they have recruited over the years, and have only left their village to shoot at Americans, may well believe it-- they don't know what's on the other side of the Hindu Kush (so to speak). It's a paradigm you find in the conquerors of antiquity. However, the difference is that what's on the other-side of the mountain is much more powerful and much more robust than your tribe.
    "I do not underestimate the ability of fanatical groups of terrorists to kill and destroy, but they do not threaten the life of the nation. Whether we would survive Hitler hung in the balance, but there is no doubt that we shall survive al-Qa'ida." -- Lord Hoffmann

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