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Thread: Iraq Ministries Targeted in Car Bombings; Over 130 Dead

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    Re: Iraq Ministries Targeted in Car Bombings; Over 130 Dead

    Quote Originally Posted by jackalope View Post
    You mention radical Islam, then suggest that people who think Islam is a religion of peace are fools. Islam and radical Islam are not the same thing.
    Most Muslims would agree. And so would I. But plenty would not and simply replace "radical" with "true." The extreme voices of Islam are rather fond of Islam's history and continually preaching about the golden age of Islam when Arabs were on top of the world. Plenty of radicals believe that slavation lies in the past when Islam was in its most glorious, which was when Muhammed established it. The problem here is that Muhammed was a protestor, an activist, an arbiter, a politician, a general, and a soveriegn. We have to consider that Islam has a very dark and deadly side not easily dismissed by politicial correct pats on the back. Consider a few things....

    1) Are the radicals and extremists wrong?

    After all, when the pagan establishment of Mecca began to confiscate Muslim homes and property it was Muhammed that authorized the uprisings. It was Muhammed that led ambush parties against Meccan caravans to achieve an economical base. And it was Muhammed that eventually led a Muslim army back to Mecca where the pagan establishment fell with little fight. Today, Muslim radicals and extremists are convinced that westernization is a direct assault upon Islam (and Muslims) and that militant organizations to defend it are justified.

    2) Do Muslims in the region mean it when they condemn terrorist activity?

    If they do, then where are the Muslim armies combatting those who pervert and destroy Islam's image to the world? It makes no sense that Muslims throughout the region can unite, riot, and protest the west whenever they are all lumped into stereotypes as if Islam just suffered the worst insult, but find no will to unite against those who truly destroy their religion directly in their midst.

    The fact is that even Muslims in the region are confused about the true identity of their religion. Christians who kill in the name of God can't get away with "what would Jesus do." But can Muslims who are looking back for guidance in describing their religion? Reform is that much harder for the faithful when the inventor of their religion set the example.

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    Re: Iraq Ministries Targeted in Car Bombings; Over 130 Dead

    Quote Originally Posted by GySgt View Post
    Most Muslims would agree. And so would I. But plenty would not and simply replace "radical" with "true." The extreme voices of Islam are rather fond of Islam's history and continually preaching about the golden age of Islam when Arabs were on top of the world. Plenty of radicals believe that slavation lies in the past when Islam was in its most glorious, which was when Muhammed established it. The problem here is that Muhammed was a protestor, an activist, an arbiter, a politician, a general, and a soveriegn. We have to consider that Islam has a very dark and deadly side not easily dismissed by politicial correct pats on the back. Consider a few things...
    I think you have hit the heart of the extremist interpretation of the prophet's life. Most Muslims would not look at the violence and apply it to their lives; it would just be as ridiculous as a Jew or Christian taking the foreskins of Philistines as David did.
    I think you miss that Muhammed, ultimately, was a reformer. He introduced concepts such as reorganizing the marriage structure-- strict guidelines on polygyny. I don't think the fault lies within the reformer, but those who obtain power after Muhammed.

    1) Are the radicals and extremists wrong?

    After all, when the pagan establishment of Mecca began to confiscate Muslim homes and property it was Muhammed that authorized the uprisings. It was Muhammed that led ambush parties against Meccan caravans to achieve an economical base. And it was Muhammed that eventually led a Muslim army back to Mecca where the pagan establishment fell with little fight. Today, Muslim radicals and extremists are convinced that westernization is a direct assault upon Islam (and Muslims) and that militant organizations to defend it are justified.
    I see radicalism within the Middle-East as not a bunch of fanatics leading fanatics, but a bunch of intelligent (ultimately secularists) evil people who twist the religion for their goals.
    I don't know if A.Q. leadership has actually read the Kuran... they totally got the wrong message of Jihad, and totally forgot the part that suicide is blasphemous... especially against follow Muslims and Ahl al-Katrib.

    2) Do Muslims in the region mean it when they condemn terrorist activity?

    If they do, then where are the Muslim armies combatting those who pervert and destroy Islam's image to the world? It makes no sense that Muslims throughout the region can unite, riot, and protest the west whenever they are all lumped into stereotypes as if Islam just suffered the worst insult, but find no will to unite against those who truly destroy their religion directly in their midst.
    I think the Muslim governments that only condemn terrorist activity work as the United States has for decades when it comes to it's rhetoric against coups and genocide. I would suspect that the Muslim governments understand the position they would be putting their population in if they tried to take on these extremists.
    The fact is that even Muslims in the region are confused about the true identity of their religion. Christians who kill in the name of God can't get away with "what would Jesus do." But can Muslims who are looking back for guidance in describing their religion? Reform is that much harder for the faithful when the inventor of their religion set the example.
    Muslims don't think that Muhammed is the "inventor" of anything. They are adamantly opposed to the concept that Westerners try to label them as, which is "Muhammedism". Muhammed is just the final messenger.
    "I do not underestimate the ability of fanatical groups of terrorists to kill and destroy, but they do not threaten the life of the nation. Whether we would survive Hitler hung in the balance, but there is no doubt that we shall survive al-Qa'ida." -- Lord Hoffmann

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    Re: Iraq Ministries Targeted in Car Bombings; Over 130 Dead

    Quote Originally Posted by Arch Enemy View Post
    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/26/wo..._r=1&ref=world



    There's still quite a bit of work to be done.
    i can't imagine what. we went where we shouldn't have, we're leaving a mess. it's a horrible situation with no good way out.

    Originally Posted by johnny_rebson:

    These are the same liberals who forgot how Iraq attacked us on 9/11.


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    Re: Iraq Ministries Targeted in Car Bombings; Over 130 Dead

    Quote Originally Posted by liblady View Post
    i can't imagine what. we went where we shouldn't have, we're leaving a mess. it's a horrible situation with no good way out.
    What do you mean we went where we shouldn't have? The ME is our resposibility. Can't just leave it to the dictators.

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    Re: Iraq Ministries Targeted in Car Bombings; Over 130 Dead

    Quote Originally Posted by Arch Enemy View Post
    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/26/wo..._r=1&ref=world



    There's still quite a bit of work to be done.
    See no work
    Hear no work
    Do no work

    The American People Have Spoken - see, we hold the might talking stick.
    A screaming comes across the sky.
    It has happened before, but there is nothing to compare it to now.
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    Re: Iraq Ministries Targeted in Car Bombings; Over 130 Dead

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    What do you mean we went where we shouldn't have? The ME is our resposibility. Can't just leave it to the dictators.
    or the Mullahs. God knows the middle east can't be just handed over to Islam

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    Re: Iraq Ministries Targeted in Car Bombings; Over 130 Dead

    Quote Originally Posted by WillRockwell View Post
    or the Mullahs. God knows the middle east can't be just handed over to Islam
    Exactly....

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    Re: Iraq Ministries Targeted in Car Bombings; Over 130 Dead

    Quote Originally Posted by GySgt View Post
    Absolutely. But it's work they have to do. Iraq is the success story the Arab Middle East have been needing for decades and decades and they don't even see it. The last thing they need is another failure.

    1) They first tried to rebuke the West as if they could be the only region on earth untouched by globalization and progress.

    2) Then they tried pan-Arabism in an attempt to unite Arabs in policies and comraderie. This translated into further embarrassment with the Suez Canal War and shattered the idea of Arab unity.

    3) By the early 70's Arab governments finally began to accept the Israel in their midst and the benefits of being friendly with the West vice the Soviet Union.

    Despite temporary set backs in history, Turkey, Egypt, Syria, and Lebanon are all Muslim nations that have progressed and moved on into the modern world. Of these, Turkey started out on its own by abolishing the Sultan in the '20s (thereby ending hundreds of years of Islamic caliphates) and embarking on democracy and westernization. The most progressive being Egypt and Turkey and those are on the fringes of Islam and removed from the Sunni heartland. I believe there is something to this. We often hear how horrible westernization was for the Middle East, but the two Arab nations that were never colonized? Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan. And look at them.

    Iraq's population is perfectly positioned to prove once and for all to every single person on earth whether or not a mixture of tribes can get it right in this region. Given Lebanon's attempts gone bad in the 20th century, Iraq is the last of them to try to get it right. Can Middle Eastern populations exist in peace without the brutal oppressions of a dictator or brutal oppressions of a theocracy? Given the chance to progress and create opportunity for all will they opt to slaughter and murder in tribal allegiance above all else?

    Iraq is going to change the world for better or for worse. It's not just a single country with an isolated problem. It is going to prove something to everybody. And the last thing Arabs need is proof that they aren't worth anything other than strict control and oppression. We already know that Sunni Arabs in Saudi Arabia are more upset over the choices their elite make for them rather than their oppression. But can Arabs create a prosperous democratic nation for all Muslims no matter the tribe? The answer will be what they do in Iraq. The majority is Shia. But the Sunni Arabs within will ultimately decide what comes next. And so will the Sunni governments that surround it.
    For the most part I would agree. I think the work that must be done, must be done by the Iraqis. It's not something we can give them. They have to choose to get along, to create a government for themselves which is sensitive to the varying tribe. For that a truly secular government is needed. It's nice to say we're going to go bring freedom and democracy or whatever, but the truth is we can't. It's not just us rolling in saying "hey you're free" which makes the situation successful. The people of the area have to be willing to go the route too. They have got to want it, they have got to fight for it, they have got to secure it. Not us.

    Will it turn out for the better? I don't know. I don't see things getting better, I don't see the resolve necessary in a People to accept the responsibilities and consequences of freedom. To fight for it, and to hold on to it. I hope that Iraq can figure their **** out. But at the same accord, I don't think anymore of my countrymen should die for their freedom.
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    Re: Iraq Ministries Targeted in Car Bombings; Over 130 Dead

    Wow that is one big freaking explosion. More like a damn MacTruck bomb instead of a car bomb.

    [ame=http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=d62_1256489185]LiveLeak.com - Second Baghdad Car Bomb Caught On Camera.[/ame]

    [ame="http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=74e_1256482362"]LiveLeak.com - Baghdad car bombing footage - 136 dead so far[/ame]
    Last edited by dirtpoorchris; 10-26-09 at 04:31 PM.
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    Re: Iraq Ministries Targeted in Car Bombings; Over 130 Dead

    Quote Originally Posted by GySgt View Post
    Absolutely. But it's work they have to do. Iraq is the success story the Arab Middle East have been needing for decades and decades and they don't even see it. The last thing they need is another failure.
    Since they've never had it how can it be another failure?

    Iraq's population is perfectly positioned to prove once and for all to every single person on earth whether or not a mixture of tribes can get it right in this region. Given Lebanon's attempts gone bad in the 20th century, Iraq is the last of them to try to get it right. Can Middle Eastern populations exist in peace without the brutal oppressions of a dictator or brutal oppressions of a theocracy? Given the chance to progress and create opportunity for all will they opt to slaughter and murder in tribal allegiance above all else?
    Can a leopard change it's spots? Of, course, of course but evolution takes a long, long time.

    Iraq is going to change the world for better or for worse.
    Only on the slim chance that it either goes back to a Saddam type, or, evn less likely it becomes a quasi democracy with no tribal, sectarian divisions.

    But can Arabs create a prosperous democratic nation for all Muslims no matter the tribe? The answer will be what they do in Iraq. The majority is Shia. But the Sunni Arabs within will ultimately decide what comes next. And so will the Sunni governments that surround it.
    I think some sunni factions voted yesterday.

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