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Thread: Cheney: Stop ‘dithering’ on Afghanistan troops

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    Re: Cheney: Stop ‘dithering’ on Afghanistan troops

    Quote Originally Posted by Devil505 View Post
    Germany had a long tradition of democracy & western culture. Totally apples to oranges compared to the ME.
    Well Japan is a good candidate in that regard. By the way, it took 4 years for Germany to become a democracy. We did it in 2 in Iraq.
    Last edited by reefedjib; 10-22-09 at 06:49 PM.

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    Re: Cheney: Stop ‘dithering’ on Afghanistan troops

    Quote Originally Posted by Devil505 View Post
    I think we're getting to the basic disagreement these things always boil down to:

    Is war strictly military or is it political.
    I think counterinsurgency wars are won or lost politically, not on any battlefield.
    The battlefield is virtual. It is the population.

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    Re: Cheney: Stop ‘dithering’ on Afghanistan troops

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    Well Japan is a good candidate in that regard.
    Better but still not the same. Japan was a strong central government culture patterned very much on western societies.
    Iraq & Afghanistan are not.
    I'd bet that within one year of us leaving...Iraq will be back in civil war.
    Last edited by Devil505; 10-22-09 at 06:53 PM.

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    Re: Cheney: Stop ‘dithering’ on Afghanistan troops

    Quote Originally Posted by goldendog View Post
    An interesting read on Cheney's exact qualifications for making sound military judgments base on knowledgable people's recommendations. I recommend you read the entire article.

    Troop Levels in Stability Operations: What We Don't Know | World | AlterNet


    Troops Levels and Iraq
    Army Chief of Staff Eric Shinseki set off a firestorm when he told the Senate Armed Services committee before the invasion that "something on the order of several hundred thousand soldiers" would be required to stabilize Iraq, a figure that began to approach 20 troops per 1,000 of the Iraqi population, the ratio that academics conventionally, if not universally, cite as necessary for successful stability operations. Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld called this estimate "far off the mark," as did Deputy Secretary Paul Wolfowitz, who put the figure closer to 100,000 troops total for Iraq. As the war drags on, requiring orders of magnitude greater time, blood, and treasure than estimated by U.S. leadership, troop figures have become the foremost issue debated at all levels.
    Shinseki was wrong, it only took 50,000 and those only got added late in the war.

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    Re: Cheney: Stop ‘dithering’ on Afghanistan troops

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    Well Japan is a good candidate in that regard. By the way, it took 4 years for Germany to become a democracy. We did it in 2 in Iraq.
    Germany was a republic for many years b4 WWII

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    Re: Cheney: Stop ‘dithering’ on Afghanistan troops

    Quote Originally Posted by Devil505 View Post
    Better but still not the same. Japan was a strong central government culture patterned very much on western societies.
    Iraq & Afghanistan are not.
    No, not the same. Did you require them to be the same in order to compare them? They are similar in some respects and different in others. We still managed to bring a stable democracy to Iraq and that's the point.

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    Re: Cheney: Stop ‘dithering’ on Afghanistan troops

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    Shinseki was wrong, it only took 50,000 and those only got added late in the war.
    He was not wrong if you remember the city was immediately looted along with all of the surrounding unguarded weapons bunkers..containing well documented weapons and munitions which were then turned on our troops by the pissed off Iraqies...He was right in every aspect.

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    Re: Cheney: Stop ‘dithering’ on Afghanistan troops

    Quote Originally Posted by Devil505 View Post
    I think we're getting to the basic disagreement these things always boil down to:

    Is war strictly military or is it political.
    I think counterinsurgency wars are won or lost politically, not on any battlefield.
    You cannot win a war, without defeating the enemy on the battlefield. While I agree that there is a larger political aspect in an unconventional war versus a conventional war, it's impossible for that political objective to be achieved, if the enemy still possesses the combat power to destroy that new government after we've left the theater. In the end, all those political gains would be for naught.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Cheney: Stop ‘dithering’ on Afghanistan troops

    Quote Originally Posted by Devil505 View Post
    Germany was a republic for many years b4 WWII
    And yet it took longer to bring a Democracy to Germany than it did to Iraq. Imagine that.

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    Re: Cheney: Stop ‘dithering’ on Afghanistan troops

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    No, not the same. Did you require them to be the same in order to compare them? They are similar in some respects and different in others. We still managed to bring a stable democracy to Iraq and that's the point.
    We haven't left Iraq yet!

    That's MY point.

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