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Thread: Bloomberg Investigation of Gun Shows

  1. #41
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    Re: Bloomberg Investigation of Gun Shows

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post

    Ah, I needed that laugh, thanks.

    Bud, I've dealt with more raw reality than you could probably cope with. You should try it sometime, it is very enlightening. Ever stared down the barrel of a gun held by someone who is really pissed at you? It focuses the mind marvelously. Ever had someone try to carve your guts out with a hawkbill knife? It's quite the thrill ride, bud.
    I've had the gun pointed at me by someone who is very intent on using it, I understand. But it doesn't mean you become some fascist nutjob.

    Most seriously violent criminals are not simply poor misunderstood and misguided youths-who-are-victims-of-society. They are scum who have shed their shell of human compassion, morals or ethics, and many of them have no qualms about killing you becuase you were in the way. Some of them think raping and torturing a man's family in front of him is a fine evening's entertainment.

    I'm not talking out my ass, I've known criminals who had this mindset.
    And the court system

    The recidivism rate for violent criminals is very high. I'm not talking about Joe Doofus who punches some numbnuts in the nose for an off-color remark. I'm talking about people who put innocents in peril of their lives for the sake of money or drugs... often less than $100 worth. Very few thugs ever come back from that to become productive and trustworthy members of society.

    A few do... but many innocents die because violent criminals were let back out into society. I don't think the few serious/violent criminals who change are worth the much larger number of innocent lives lost.

    Not enough room in the prisons? Legalize drugs and pardon nonviolent drug offenders, that will clear up about half the cells. Still not enough room? Executing the more serious offenders wouldn't bother me overmuch.

    You say murder and rape. My list would include those plus: armed robbery, strongarm robbery where any innocent person suffered serious harm, "hot" burglarly (where people are home), carjacking, and any other felony crime where an innocent person suffered serious bodily harm in the course of the commission of that felony.

    Again, I'm not talking about Leshawn the petty pot dealer, or Betty the shop-lifter who pushed a clerk in Wal-mart. I'm talking about people who have engaged in criminal acts that did or easily could have resulted in grave bodily harm or death to innocent citizens.

    Society is not obligated to coddle those who threaten its innocent members unjustly.

    G.[/QUOTE]

    Certain people have no human comapssion, so you give criminals no chance to redeem themselves and you talk about casually executing people? You have no right to claim to be a christian with that mindset. You have no right to mention the founding fathers who believed in inherent human decency when you talk about casually locking people up for life.
    The Makeout Hobo is real, and does indeed travel around the country in his van and make out with ladies... If you meet the Makeout Hobo, it is customary to greet him with a shot of whiskey and a high five (if you are a dude) or passionate makeouts (if you are a lady).

  2. #42
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    Re: Bloomberg Investigation of Gun Shows

    Quote Originally Posted by PogueMoran View Post
    The point of posting the video was more about how an undercover investigation is done in comparison to the acorn tapes
    See you're not suppose to overdub the voices of Acorn employees with rightwingnuts to make them sound like they're breaking the law. You just can't do that.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
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  3. #43
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    Re: Bloomberg Investigation of Gun Shows

    Quote Originally Posted by the makeout hobo View Post
    I've had the gun pointed at me by someone who is very intent on using it, I understand. But it doesn't mean you become some fascist nutjob.


    And the court system


    Certain people have no human comapssion, so you give criminals no chance to redeem themselves and you talk about casually executing people? You have no right to claim to be a christian with that mindset. You have no right to mention the founding fathers who believed in inherent human decency when you talk about casually locking people up for life.
    Getting kinda personal with the ad-homs there, aren't you?

    Again, you are mischaracterizing my position. I'm not talking about all criminals; I'm not even talking about all violent criminals. I'm talking about violent criminals who commit certain types of crimes, which I listed, that put them "beyond the pale of re-acceptance to society" in my opinion.

    There is nothing casual about my attitude. I was peripherally involved in a State execution about a decade ago. I did more than a little bit of soul-searching over it, and came to the conclusion that the execution of the man in question for his crime was justice, and that justice needed to be served. I have no problem with executing premeditated murderers, murderers who kill in the commission of a robbery or burglary, forcible rapists, child abusers and similar scum-of-the-earth.

    Before you accuse me of being lacking in Christianity, maybe you should educate yourself about Christian principles:

    Exodus 21:12 "Whosoever smite a man so that he die, shall surely be put to death."

    Since that's OT, here's some NT to go along with it:

    Romans 13:3-4 "For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
    For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to [execute] wrath upon him that doeth evil. "


    Of the 272,111 persons released from prisons in 15 States in 1994, an estimated 67.5% were rearrested for a felony or serious misdemeanor within 3 years, 46.9% were reconvicted, and 25.4% resentenced to prison for a new crime.
    The 272,111 offenders discharged in 1994 accounted for nearly 4,877,000 arrest charges over their recorded careers.
    Bureau of Justice Statistics Criminal Offenders Statistics

    TRENDS, TRAITS, AND OBSERVATIONS OF ALL OFFENDERS
    Previous studies have found that an offender’s criminal past is a compelling indicator of future
    recidivism. These findings are validated by the observations of Wisconsin offenders analyzed
    for this report. Of adult offenders sentenced to DOC multiple times, those with 1,2,3,4, and 5
    prior offenses commit another offense 39%, 50%, 55%, 57%, and 58% of the time respectively.

    This re-offending percentage continues to increase with the number of priors.
    Also consistent with previous studies, the Wisconsin statistics documented herein demonstrate
    that younger offenders recidivate at a rate much higher than older offenders. Roughly half of all
    offenses committed by DOC sentenced recidivists were ages 18 through 23. Other Wisconsin
    findings consistent with previous studies include the recidivism rates for gender and race. As
    expected, male recidivists in Wisconsin re-offended and are re-sentenced to DOC more often
    than females (38% versus 27%). American Indian and Black offenders topped the list of
    percent recidivating, followed by Hispanics, Whites, and Asian/Pacific Islanders.
    .....
    Studying individual
    offender groups results in the identification of traits unique to those offender groups. For
    example, the traits of robbers include:
    Robbers commit more offenses per offender than other offenders.
    Offenses committed by robbers are in general more severe than other offenders (70%
    felonies for robbers versus 35% felonies for other offenders).
    Robbers recidivate at a much higher rate than other offenders (65% versus 35%).
    • Sentencing robbers may require a longer term view since robbers have criminal careers
    that span a long period of time.

    • Robbers are younger than other offenders. Recidivistic robbers are younger than
    robbers who do not recidivate.
    There is no distinguishable point at which robbers “age out.”
    • The recidivism rate of female robbers is much higher than other female offenders (55%
    versus 26%).
    ...
    • Studies of the criminal histories of robbers suggest that there are in some cases
    identifiable progressions of offenses from retail theft to theft to burglary to robbery.
    The point being that we're putting too many people back on the street, after committing a serious violent felony, who are going to do it again.

    When we come up with a fool-proof mind-probe that determines accurately which criminals offenders are likely to commit further serious crime and which aren't, then being a little more flexible might be possible. Until then, too many innocents are dying because we let repeat violent felons out of prison.

    If we did it my way, there is no question that many lives would be saved.
    Aren't you part of the crowd that, on gun control issues, always yells "If it saves one child's life it is worth it!"

    Well, this would save lots of lives.

    G.
    Last edited by Goshin; 10-22-09 at 07:04 PM.

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  4. #44
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    Re: Bloomberg Investigation of Gun Shows

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Getting kinda personal with the ad-homs there, aren't you?

    Again, you are mischaracterizing my position. I'm not talking about all criminals; I'm not even talking about all violent criminals. I'm talking about violent criminals who commit certain types of crimes, which I listed, that put them "beyond the pale of re-acceptance to society" in my opinion.

    There is nothing casual about my attitude. I was peripherally involved in a State execution about a decade ago. I did more than a little bit of soul-searching over it, and came to the conclusion that the execution of the man in question for his crime was justice, and that justice needed to be served. I have no problem with executing premeditated murderers, murderers who kill in the commission of a robbery or burglary, forcible rapists, child abusers and similar scum-of-the-earth.
    Yet you casually make comments about how we should execute people if we need to make more room in prisons. See why i don't buy this soul searching? And I ask you why any man ever has the right to kill another man in any situation other than self-defense? Taking a life is the most heinous crime anyone can commit. Committing it on criminals only goes to cheapen life for everyone.

    Before you accuse me of being lacking in Christianity, maybe you should educate yourself about Christian principles:

    Exodus 21:12 "Whosoever smite a man so that he die, shall surely be put to death."

    Since that's OT, here's some NT to go along with it:
    Good, as long as we agree that old testament death penalty laws should have no bearing on a modern society.

    Romans 13:3-4 "For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
    For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to [execute] wrath upon him that doeth evil. " [/quote]

    This is talking about the government punishing someone who breaks the laws, it is not specifically talking about capital punishment. The phrase is "execute wrath", not "execute". It's a figure of speech meaning that the government will act as a tool for the wrath of God, not anything to do with the death penalty. I recommend using a more accessible and closer translation than King James. Any other argument you want to throw out? I recommend you actually try to figure out what the verse is talking about this time.

    Bureau of Justice Statistics Criminal Offenders Statistics

    The point being that we're putting too many people back on the street, after committing a serious violent felony, who are going to do it again.

    When we come up with a fool-proof mind-probe that determines accurately which criminals offenders are likely to commit further serious crime and which aren't, then being a little more flexible might be possible. Until then, too many innocents are dying because we let repeat violent felons out of prison.

    If we did it my way, there is no question that many lives would be saved.
    So whatever the cost, then? The ends justify the means, forget concepts of redemption and rehabilitation, forget worrying about the bill, forget concepts of justice, even?


    Aren't you part of the crowd that, on gun control issues, always yells "If it saves one child's life it is worth it!"

    Well, this would save lots of lives.

    G.
    No I'm not. You're attributing something to me that I've never said. I happen to be very pro-registration, but anti-prohibition/confiscation.
    The Makeout Hobo is real, and does indeed travel around the country in his van and make out with ladies... If you meet the Makeout Hobo, it is customary to greet him with a shot of whiskey and a high five (if you are a dude) or passionate makeouts (if you are a lady).

  5. #45
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    Re: Bloomberg Investigation of Gun Shows

    Quote Originally Posted by the makeout hobo View Post
    Yet you casually make comments about how we should execute people if we need to make more room in prisons. See why i don't buy this soul searching? And I ask you why any man ever has the right to kill another man in any situation other than self-defense? Taking a life is the most heinous crime anyone can commit. Committing it on criminals only goes to cheapen life for everyone.
    Ok, you don't believe capital punishment was something I struggled over years ago before deciding that it was justified, and you're going to ignore the fact that I am only talking about those who committed 1st-degree or aggravated murder, or forcible rape, or forcibly raped a child.

    There are some things for which execution, after due process, is a just punishment. You don't agree with that... what a shock.

    I will asset that I have as much or more compassion than you do: I just lavish it on the innocent and the victims, not the perps.

    So, if you're going to essentially call me a liar with no solid proof to back it up, I should bother debating with you why?




    Good, as long as we agree that old testament death penalty laws should have no bearing on a modern society.

    Romans 13:3-4 "For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
    For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to [execute] wrath upon him that doeth evil. "

    This is talking about the government punishing someone who breaks the laws, it is not specifically talking about capital punishment. The phrase is "execute wrath", not "execute". It's a figure of speech meaning that the government will act as a tool for the wrath of God, not anything to do with the death penalty. I recommend using a more accessible and closer translation than King James. Any other argument you want to throw out? I recommend you actually try to figure out what the verse is talking about this time.
    You can save the snide remarks, I'll put my knowlege of the Bible up against yours any day. If you choose to mischaracterize the Bible as being against capital punishment, well you must never have read the thing.


    So whatever the cost, then? The ends justify the means, forget concepts of redemption and rehabilitation, forget worrying about the bill, forget concepts of justice, even?
    As I pointed out, rehabilitating criminals who have committed certain types of crime is an iffy prospect. Many of them get out, and commit further serious crimes. Lives are lost and ruined as a result. If you're so keen on rehabilitation, how about we put a halfway house for released murderers, rapists, armed robbers and carjackers on your street next door to you? When they're released from the halfway house, perhaps you'd like to rent a room to one of them.

    Again, I'm not talking about all criminals, or even all violent criminals. I'm talking about those who have committed crimes that point to a total lack of any care for the lives of innocents, and typically crimes with a high recidivism rate. Until we get serious about dealing with criminals (those who commit the acts that destroy the lives of innocents), gun control is nothing more than a red herring (focusing on the inanimate object).

    Fiddling While Rome Burns
    ISIS: Carthago Delenda Est
    "I used to roll the dice; see the fear in my enemies' eyes... listen as the crowd would sing, 'now the old king is dead, Long Live the King.'.."

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