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Thread: Obama reaffirms will end "Don't ask Don't tell"

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    Re: Obama reaffirms will end "Don't ask Don't tell"

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    Do you really think you know what's best for an American infantry unit?
    I know what is inherently right and wrong.

    We teach our children to tell the truth and the importance of being honest.

    If you cannot see how this flys in the face of that than you have no understanding of the word "integrity".


    (or does honesty not apply in the case of the military?)
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    Re: Obama reaffirms will end "Don't ask Don't tell"

    Quote Originally Posted by disneydude View Post
    I know what is inherently right and wrong.

    We teach our children to tell the truth and the importance of being honest.
    Sounds like it would make for a great Mr. Rogers episode but not something worth sacrificing military efficiency over.

    If you cannot see how this flys in the face of that than you have no understanding of the word "integrity".
    I guess I just care more about people dying than being sweet and honest.

    (or does honesty not apply in the case of the military?)
    Sign the papers and find out.

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    Re: Obama reaffirms will end "Don't ask Don't tell"

    In 1993, as the language was drafted for
    §654, there were no direct scientific studies
    regarding the effects of acknowledged homosexuals
    on either unit cohesion or combat
    effectiveness.
    So, there is no evidence either way.

    Furthermore, it is incorrect
    to equate the two because unit cohesion is
    only one of many factors that go into combat
    effectiveness. Potentially far outweighing unit
    cohesion, for example, are logistics, training,
    equipment, organization, and leadership, just
    to name a few.
    This is a valid contention. I would like to see some evidence of how each factor contributes to overall efficiency.

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    Re: Obama reaffirms will end "Don't ask Don't tell"

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    So, there is no evidence either way.
    There actually is evidence. Military forces in other countries that do not disallow gays are not having issues, and the Israeli military is among the best in the world. Further, studies have been done which indicate that there would be no problem. Just one example: The New York Times > Log In

    A 2006 poll of Iraq and Afghanistan war veterans showed that 72 percent were personally comfortable interacting with gays. Bonnie Moradi, a University of Florida psychologist, and Laura Miller, a sociologist at the Rand Corporation, summarized the study this way: “The data indicated no associations between knowing a lesbian or gay unit member and ratings of perceived unit cohesion or readiness. Instead, findings pointed to the importance of leadership and instrumental quality in shaping perceptions of unit cohesion and readiness.”
    The study referenced was contracted by the DoD and done by Rand Corp.
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    Re: Obama reaffirms will end "Don't ask Don't tell"

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    Sounds like it would make for a great Mr. Rogers episode but not something worth sacrificing military efficiency over.



    I guess I just care more about people dying than being sweet and honest
    Can you please present some evidence that the military will be inefficient and/or people will die if gays are allowed to serve openly in the military?

    It's a shame that Scorpion's ignorant misinformation consumed 9 pages of this thread, when there is an actual policy discussion to be had.
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    Re: Obama reaffirms will end "Don't ask Don't tell"

    Quote Originally Posted by Scorpion89 View Post
    All fine and dandy but who is going to go and tell the Military that they are going to have to change the UCMJ. Oh wait they can't because it's a US Code which can't be changed unless The United States Supreme court rule's it and the USSC has never overturned any UCMJ.
    To say that the Congress and Senate can't change the UCMJ is to show that you have no understanding of how our system works.

    Between the two they can add or change or take out ANY law or any part of a law in the US. Including what's in the Bill of Rights.

    The only way that the USSC can affect a law is to determine weather or not it is Constitutional. Beyond that they have no power what so ever.
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    Re: Obama reaffirms will end "Don't ask Don't tell"

    I am amazed people showed such patience, especially when there are some budding lawyers on this forum. But it also saddens me that one person (and maybe others) could have such a misinformed understanding of the doctrine of the separation of powers, and the power of Constitutional and Legislative review of the US Supreme Court.

    Nevertheless interesting times indeed.

    P.S why hasn't Navy Pride posted on this issue?

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    Re: Obama reaffirms will end "Don't ask Don't tell"

    Quote Originally Posted by Scorpion89 View Post
    All fine and dandy but who is going to go and tell the Military that they are going to have to change the UCMJ. Oh wait they can't because it's a US Code which can't be changed unless The United States Supreme court rule's it and the USSC has never overturned any UCMJ.
    First of all, the UCMJ has been changed before. Article 120 for example used to have a caveat about rape that excluded the servicemember from being charged if the accusation came from his wife. This has been changed.

    And for those who are not aware, Article 125, the Sodomy article, also applies to heterosexuals. However, rarely if ever is this article used against heterosexuals. The few times that it may be used is when there is another crime involved as well, such as rape or adultery, and then it is usually so the CO can add another charge and justify higher punishment. It is used as the primary law against homosexuals in almost every case. This is an obvious double standard.

    Now, I will say that I have never actually seen either a heterosexual or a homosexual charged with Article 125. The few sailors that I did see get out due to homosexual behavior were all administratively discharged with no charges filed. Every command that I went to in the Navy tended to overlook certain Articles of the UCMJ specifically dealing with consensual sexual acts, such as adultery and sodomy.
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    Re: Obama reaffirms will end "Don't ask Don't tell"

    I'm going to shoot for the moon here. But I'm thinking grand conspiracy to comply with Vatican masters.
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    Re: Obama reaffirms will end "Don't ask Don't tell"

    You know if the rightwing really hated gays, we'd get them all in the military hoping they'd get shot, now wouldn't we?
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