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Thread: Obama reaffirms will end "Don't ask Don't tell"

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    Re: Obama reaffirms will end "Don't ask Don't tell"

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Not all true, and I'm an E-6.

    The fact that Congress can change the UCMJ has been explained to you in earlier parts of this thread. No need to
    No, they can't and no one has shown the process to do so, if that were true.

    If a person is actually punished for a charge of sexual harassment for just opening a door and saying "I'm gay" (assuming DADT were removed), then I would hope that the person charged with SH actually files as many grievances against the command as possible. I however, doubt that most commands would allow this to get up to NJP anyway. The EO can advise the CO on what would actually constitute blatant sexual harassment, and what can be considered something that should be handled at the lowest level possible. So unless there is more to the story or the EO and CO are both paranoid, incompetent, or ignorant, then they would probably just have more sexual harassment/red-yellow-green light training. I learned a lot from my experience that I posted earlier.
    Obviously, things are handled differently in the Navy. In the Army, a soldier that is charged with sexual harassment; and the incident proceeds beyond an on the spot correction, or personal counseling, is going to feel fortunate t dodge the charge and isn't going to file a grievance because he/she feels wrongfully accused.

    And as for shipboard relations, you can't show public displays of affection on ship or while in public on base, but, with the exception of schools, you are allowed to have members of the opposite sex in barracks rooms. And you can have a romantic relationship with one of your shipmates as long as you are not violating fraternization regulations and it is in private off the ship. I've seen several cases where couples from the ship got married. The chain of command simply transfers one of them to another command, generally in the same area.

    In the Army, males aren't allowed to occupy female billets and vice-versa.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Obama reaffirms will end "Don't ask Don't tell"

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    No, they can't and no one has shown the process to do so, if that were true.
    This is just you being stubborn.



    Obviously, things are handled differently in the Navy. In the Army, a soldier that is charged with sexual harassment; and the incident proceeds beyond an on the spot correction, or personal counseling, is going to feel fortunate t dodge the charge and isn't going to file a grievance because he/she feels wrongfully accused.
    The rules are the same, though handling of them at command level might be different.


    In the Army, males aren't allowed to occupy female billets and vice-versa.
    That is different by base and barracks in the Navy. Barracks with private bathrooms opposite sex was allowed in rooms till 2000, in barracks with community bathrooms, opposite sex only allowed in common rooms was the general rule.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

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    Re: Obama reaffirms will end "Don't ask Don't tell"

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    This is just you being stubborn.
    Ok, then document the process that is used to change the UCMJ. Should be simple, right?





    The rules are the same, though handling of them at command level might be different.
    Exactly.




    That is different by base and barracks in the Navy. Barracks with private bathrooms opposite sex was allowed in rooms till 2000, in barracks with community bathrooms, opposite sex only allowed in common rooms was the general rule.

    There's very little variance in the Army.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Obama reaffirms will end "Don't ask Don't tell"

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Ok, then document the process that is used to change the UCMJ. Should be simple, right?
    [ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UCMJ]Uniform Code of Military Justice - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

    The current version is printed in the latest version of the Manual for Courts-Martial (2008), incorporating changes made by the President (executive orders) and National Defense Authorization Acts 2006 and 2007.
    Hey look, Executive orders and acts of congress changed the UCMJ last time it was changed...


    Exactly.
    There is a framework within the UCMJ as to how these are handled. The differences would be largely at command level, and how investigations are done and what exact penalties are issued. The overall rules are the same. Sexual harassment is a red herring as far as gays in the military, since there is no evidence that gay soldiers are more prone to sexually harass some one than strait soldiers.



    There's very little variance in the Army.
    Does the Army have a wide variety of barracks types?
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

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    Re: Obama reaffirms will end "Don't ask Don't tell"

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Uniform Code of Military Justice - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



    Hey look, Executive orders and acts of congress changed the UCMJ last time it was changed...
    Yeah, they added stuff to it. They didn't delete laws from it. If it's as easy as folks claim, what's the hold up?




    There is a framework within the UCMJ as to how these are handled. The differences would be largely at command level, and how investigations are done and what exact penalties are issued. The overall rules are the same. Sexual harassment is a red herring as far as gays in the military, since there is no evidence that gay soldiers are more prone to sexually harass some one than strait soldiers.
    It's not just about gay soldiers harassing straight soldiers. It's possible for straight soldiers to harass gay soldiers, as well. Did you factor that in.





    Does the Army have a wide variety of barracks types?

    Not really. But, regardless of the archetecture and floor plans, there are male areas and female areas. Males ans females can occupy the same building, but each floor is designated male, or female.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Obama reaffirms will end "Don't ask Don't tell"

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Yeah, they added stuff to it. They didn't delete laws from it. If it's as easy as folks claim, what's the hold up?
    This is a question many of us are asking. It is as easy as that, and it's not done, and we are not happy.


    It's not just about gay soldiers harassing straight soldiers. It's possible for straight soldiers to harass gay soldiers, as well. Did you factor that in.
    Um, that is irrelevant to what I said. I did not mention strait or gay targets, simply that there is no evidence that gay soldiers are more prone to sexually harass any one(and evidence of the opposite, see study linked earlier). In other words, allowing gays to serve would probably have no effect on the number of sexual harassment cases in the military.


    Not really. But, regardless of the archetecture and floor plans, there are male areas and female areas. Males ans females can occupy the same building, but each floor is designated male, or female.
    It was somewhat different, and we could visit opposite sex rooms up to a certain hour, and the rules regarding that where mostly ignored.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

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    Re: Obama reaffirms will end "Don't ask Don't tell"

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    This is a question many of us are asking. It is as easy as that, and it's not done, and we are not happy.
    I think the answer is: it ain't as easy as you think. Between the dad-burn laws and the blowback that will surely come from the military, it's going to be damn near impossible to change the law. I mean, we're talking about abolishing the article in the UCMJ that forbids sodomy.


    Um, that is irrelevant to what I said. I did not mention strait or gay targets, simply that there is no evidence that gay soldiers are more prone to sexually harass any one(and evidence of the opposite, see study linked earlier). In other words, allowing gays to serve would probably have no effect on the number of sexual harassment cases in the military.
    It has everything to do with what you said. The argument is that gays will harass straight soldiers. The argument is that both gays and straights could be subject to a whole new environment of sexual harassment. Gay soldiers have rights, too. Look, let's be realistic. Gay soldiers are human. They're prone to the same shortcomings as straight soldiers. If gays are allowed to serve openly in the military, expect gay on gay harassment, gay on straight harassment and straight on gay harassment. It's statistically impossible for it not to happen.


    It was somewhat different, and we could visit opposite sex rooms up to a certain hour, and the rules regarding that where mostly ignored.
    If you ignored those restrictions in the Army, you could realistically be charged with intent to rape of every female that lives in that billet.


    You gotta stop and think that there's a big difference between the kind of person that joins the Navy and the kind of person that joins the Army. Army personel require alot more tough love than navy personel do. The school of thought being, if you can't depend on a soldier to do what he's told in the safety of the garrison, how can you depend on him to do what he's told amidst the dangers of the battlefield? Discipline in an infantry unit does and must come swift and harsh. Gay soldiers can, will and must be held to the same standards.

    Like I said in a past post, Army officers are going to take the path of least resistance when it comes to sexual harassment cases. That path is to crucify the accused and move on with their careers. It might not be like that in the Navy, but trust me, that's how it works in the Army.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Obama reaffirms will end "Don't ask Don't tell"

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    As a general rule, women don't go on combat patrols, with combat arms units.
    As a general rule neither do most men.




    I haven't seen any pattern to suggest that.
    I certainly have.





    Soldiers, per the UCMJ, have the right to file grievances.
    And in what sense are these rights restricted by allowing gays?







    This ain't Britain. Besides, 99% of female soldiers in the British army say they experienced some form of sexual harassment. Is that really the standard we want to meet?

    Sexual harassment rife in armed forces | UK news | The Guardian
    Why do keep saying this aint Britain? Of course it isnt. But Britain is much like the US armed forces, and its far more traditional and regimented to boot with much more macho BS in its ranks given the society its based on.

    But, your argument is that harrassment will increase. The counter is that gays will be able to defend themselves in the open with real and legal means, rather than hide their suffering. Plus he US gets to keep soldiers that it so badly needs. Besides, women are not going to be removed from the army. It is the army that must adapt not the women. So why not for gays too?

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    Re: Obama reaffirms will end "Don't ask Don't tell"

    Quote Originally Posted by creation View Post
    As a general rule neither do most men.
    Male soldiers don't do combat patrols in combat arms units? Who does?


    I certainly have.
    I've enver seen soldiers from a combat arms unit become more unrully on their off time than soldiers from other branch of arms.



    And in what sense are these rights restricted by allowing gays?
    I never said it was. You sated, "what rights?", as to say that soldier don't have rights.


    Why do keep saying this aint Britain? Of course it isnt. But Britain is much like the US armed forces, and its far more traditional and regimented to boot with much more macho BS in its ranks given the society its based on.
    British forces are nothing like US forces. US forces consists mostly of Americans. British forces consist mostly of Britons. Two different cultures and one can't be used as exmaple of how the other should operate it's miltiary.

    But, your argument is that harrassment will increase. The counter is that gays will be able to defend themselves in the open with real and legal means, rather than hide their suffering. Plus he US gets to keep soldiers that it so badly needs.
    That's true, gays will be able to defend themselves against harassment and that's why you will see a sharp increase in sexual harassment, which will ultimately have a negative impact on our military's image.

    Besides, women are not going to be removed from the army. It is the army that must adapt not the women. So why not for gays too?
    You're wrong, females have to adapt to military life the same way that males do.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Obama reaffirms will end "Don't ask Don't tell"

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    No, they can't and no one has shown the process to do so, if that were true.
    Good God, man.

    Both houses of Congress pass a bill and the President signs it.

    There. There's the process. You should have learned it in fourth grade, if not sooner.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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