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Thread: Obama reaffirms will end "Don't ask Don't tell"

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    Re: Obama reaffirms will end "Don't ask Don't tell"

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    But, that's all it is, a study. I think we're all smart enough to know that when the metal meets the meat, those high browed studies don't mean jack.
    I think you misunderstand what the study says. It looks at what happens in part when "the metal meets the meat". It finds that having gays serve openly has no noticeable effect, and that gays are already there where fighting is happening. That is the thing, it looks at facts, and makes assessments based on those facts, which is something you have not done.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

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    Re: Obama reaffirms will end "Don't ask Don't tell"

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    I think you misunderstand what the study says. It looks at what happens in part when "the metal meets the meat". It finds that having gays serve openly has no noticeable effect, and that gays are already there where fighting is happening. That is the thing, it looks at facts, and makes assessments based on those facts, which is something you have not done.
    Did the study survey 100% of all units in the armed services? Or did they cherry pick units that would a favorable spin on the study? I don't put stock in studies and polls, sorry.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Obama reaffirms will end "Don't ask Don't tell"

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    I think you misunderstand what the study says. It looks at what happens in part when "the metal meets the meat". It finds that having gays serve openly has no noticeable effect, and that gays are already there where fighting is happening. That is the thing, it looks at facts, and makes assessments based on those facts, which is something you have not done.
    I haven't read the study but the conclusions you quoted are interesting. I think what the difference between you guys is that there may need to be additional changes made to things like the SH, for DADT to be abolished successfully, and result in an outcome like your study describes. Does the study talk about rules in place for harrassment and co-existence?

    I think it is doable to get rid of DADT, but it will be painful.

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    Re: Obama reaffirms will end "Don't ask Don't tell"

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Did the study survey 100% of all units in the armed services? Or did they cherry pick units that would a favorable spin on the study? I don't put stock in studies and polls, sorry.
    I linked to the study, feel free to read it and educate yourself. That is why I like to provide links. I know you put no stock in anything that points to flaws in your reasoning in this poll, as your debate on the UCMJ and modifying it showed clearly, but you are an easy foil to get out my opinions, since you make my positions look very reasoned and strong.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

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    Re: Obama reaffirms will end "Don't ask Don't tell"

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    I haven't read the study but the conclusions you quoted are interesting. I think what the difference between you guys is that there may need to be additional changes made to things like the SH, for DADT to be abolished successfully, and result in an outcome like your study describes. Does the study talk about rules in place for harrassment and co-existence?

    I think it is doable to get rid of DADT, but it will be painful.
    No need to change sexual harassment rules, since they would cover situations between people of the same sex. There is no evidence that there would be a large increase in sexual harassment if DADT is removed and gays allowed to serve openly, and since there are ~35k gay soldiers now, and other countries have successfully integrated gays into their military, it seems pretty unlikely. Any sexual harassment cases that do occur can be easily handled by the current rules, and the fact there would be some is not a real problem, since people break just about every rule in the military, and yet we still have the strongest, most effective military in the world.

    Racial integration did not break the military, nor did allowing women increased roles. Both cases do point to how best to handle the transition though, and the study I linked does make comparisons and from them recommendations on how to handle things when it does happen, and it is inevitably going to happen before too long.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

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    Re: Obama reaffirms will end "Don't ask Don't tell"

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    No need to change sexual harassment rules, since they would cover situations between people of the same sex. There is no evidence that there would be a large increase in sexual harassment if DADT is removed and gays allowed to serve openly, and since there are ~35k gay soldiers now, and other countries have successfully integrated gays into their military, it seems pretty unlikely. Any sexual harassment cases that do occur can be easily handled by the current rules, and the fact there would be some is not a real problem, since people break just about every rule in the military, and yet we still have the strongest, most effective military in the world.

    Racial integration did not break the military, nor did allowing women increased roles. Both cases do point to how best to handle the transition though, and the study I linked does make comparisons and from them recommendations on how to handle things when it does happen, and it is inevitably going to happen before too long.
    Perhaps you are right. I dislike the SH rules for reasons beyond the impact with the DADT issue. I find it hard to believe that just on an accusation a career can be ruined. I wonder if accusations of gays privately telling other soldiers have occurred. And what has been the outcome.

    It could still be a big problem, much like the problems that occurred when blacks were integrated. I don't mean when all black units were formed, I mean when blacks were integrated into all white units. Lots of problems occurred, I believe. In wartime, there is always the reports of soldiers who catch a bullet in the back. That level of distrust and dislike will occur.

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    Re: Obama reaffirms will end "Don't ask Don't tell"

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    Perhaps you are right. I dislike the SH rules for reasons beyond the impact with the DADT issue. I find it hard to believe that just on an accusation a career can be ruined. I wonder if accusations of gays privately telling other soldiers have occurred. And what has been the outcome.

    It could still be a big problem, much like the problems that occurred when blacks were integrated. I don't mean when all black units were formed, I mean when blacks were integrated into all white units. Lots of problems occurred, I believe. In wartime, there is always the reports of soldiers who catch a bullet in the back. That level of distrust and dislike will occur.
    There are some real exaggerations on how sexual harassment claims are handled. It's not perfect, but the word of the accuser is not automatically accepted.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

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    Re: Obama reaffirms will end "Don't ask Don't tell"

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    There are some real exaggerations on how sexual harassment claims are handled. It's not perfect, but the word of the accuser is not automatically accepted.
    And, that would be a blatant falsehood.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Obama reaffirms will end "Don't ask Don't tell"

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    There are some real exaggerations on how sexual harassment claims are handled. It's not perfect, but the word of the accuser is not automatically accepted.
    Luckily, I served in a combat unit in Germany, so we were all male, as a battalion on our own base (kaserne), so there were no women to get into trouble with. They had some trouble across town in a mixed unit from time to time and the word was that just the accusation of harrassment would get you in trouble. I am not sure of the details, however.

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    Re: Obama reaffirms will end "Don't ask Don't tell"

    Guys, come debate with me over here: http://www.debatepolitics.com/war-ir...q-war-met.html

    I'm trying to start a new thread on a topic I find very interesting. Cheers.

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