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Thread: Obama reaffirms will end "Don't ask Don't tell"

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    Re: Obama reaffirms will end "Don't ask Don't tell"

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    I can't believe that you've so far failed to post anything supporting your position. If it's that obvious, it shouldn't take long to post documentation proving it.

    newsflash: no branch has the undisputed authority to do anything. That's why they call it, "checks and balances". You just out of school, so that part oughta be fresh in your memory.
    This has been explained to you over and over and over and over again in this thread. I'm not going to continue pounding my head against the wall.

    (This is where you respond with some variation on "Oh, so you don't have any evidence, eh?" and then go to bed, secure in the knowledge that you're smarter than everyone else on the internets.)
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    Re: Obama reaffirms will end "Don't ask Don't tell"

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    You asked for me to show you where the Congress and the president can't change the criminal code. I can't prove a negative. It's now upon you to show us where it is written that they can. Just give us some historical exmaples of it taking place; that's all.

    Look, there's he good and solid reason that PBO hasn't abolished DADT: he can't. He's really spoofing people when he makes it sound as if he's going to just get rid of it with a stroke of his pen.
    Congress can and has amended articles of the UCMJ. They did just that to update Article 120 to change the wording to add clarification and add stalking and sexual assault.

    Punitive Articles of the UCMJ -- Article 120, Rape, sexual assault, and other sexual misconduct.
    Uniform Code of Military Justice Article 120 - Banks.com
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scorpion89 View Post
    As I have stated DADT can't be changed because if it is removed then Section 925 Art. 125 can and will be used. As I also stated that if the President could have used an Excut. Order to remove Section 925 Art. 125 then Mr. Clinton would have done it when DADT was implemented. The bottom line is this only the USSC can change the UCMJ and they have very rarely ruled any part of UCMJ Un-Constitutional.
    Article 125 could still only be used if they got caught or turned themselves in. DADT does not automatically make Article 125 null and void. DADT just means that a person cannot be asked officially if they are homosexual. And if they tell someone officially that they are a homosexual, then it is up to the CO if he wishes to conduct an investigation. There are a few cases where, due to the nature of how the command found out about the person's/people's homosexuality, the command doesn't have a choice but to investigate, but even in these cases, the personnel's value to the command/service is considered in whether or not to put the person/people out.

    Also, as mentioned before, Article 125 is not used fairly anyway, that is one reason why it should be deemed unconstitutional and removed altogether or at least changed to make an exception if the parties involved are doing it in private. Plenty of heterosexual men and women brag about their exploits breaking this particular article, and yet it is rarely ever used against heterosexuals.

    I would love to hear a good argument for how exactly sodomy, when performed in private, actually affects unit cohesion or even good order and discipline, because considering that civilian sodomy laws were ruled unconstitutional by the USSC, then this is the only justification the military can cling to for its own sodomy laws. So anyone who is defending UCMJ Article 125, exactly as written, want to tell me how a guy getting his willy wet by his wife in the privacy of their home affects how you might perform your duties or how he is affecting good order and discipline of the military unit he is in?
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    Re: Obama reaffirms will end "Don't ask Don't tell"

    And the question is whether or not Obama has enough political capital to help sway enough of the Congress to not stay with the status-quo which is still heavily defended by many.

    For Obama, this also could be a further distraction from other policy aims.
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    Re: Obama reaffirms will end "Don't ask Don't tell"

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    And the question is whether or not Obama has enough political capital to help sway enough of the Congress to not stay with the status-quo which is still heavily defended by many.
    The American people are solidly behind allowing gays to serve openly. This is not an issue that should require a lot of political capital.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree
    For Obama, this also could be a further distraction from other policy aims.
    Why are actual policy changes viewed as "distractions"?
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    Re: Obama reaffirms will end "Don't ask Don't tell"

    You are at one of those critical junctures to figure out if you can accomplish the goal of having openly gay citizens serve their country, but I think it is an exaggeration to say ''The American people'' are open to this. I am certainly in support of this, but we have to remember this is a controversial subject matter. Expressing support or starting the process to allow open gays in the military will likely require compromises in one area or another in other hot button political issues. Depending on what the parties important to this want, you could see this issue being sidelined.
    Michael J Petrilli-"Is School Choice Enough?"-A response to the recent timidity of American conservatives toward education reform. https://nationalaffairs.com/publicat...-choice-enough

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    Re: Obama reaffirms will end "Don't ask Don't tell"

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    You are at one of those critical junctures to figure out if you can accomplish the goal of having openly gay citizens serve their country, but I think it is an exaggeration to say ''The American people'' are open to this. I am certainly in support of this, but we have to remember this is a controversial subject matter. Expressing support or starting the process to allow open gays in the military will likely require compromises in one area or another in other hot button political issues. Depending on what the parties important to this want, you could see this issue being sidelined.
    I can't see it sidelined. We are still in TWO wars and are likely to commit even more troops to what I consider to be a unwinable war in Afghanistan.
    We can no longer afford to expend our assets in the form of discrimating against people for such ignorant reasons. We can no longer afford to train people into being valuable assets to our military and then dicharge them for these reason.

    Please expain the negative aspects of having "openly gay citizens" serving their country and explain just how they might conduct themselves differently than they do currently when the President and congress repeal DADT?

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    Re: Obama reaffirms will end "Don't ask Don't tell"

    They could certainly frame the debate in that fashion of it being useful for the War on Terror, but nevertheless there is still a large amount of people who do not see it that crucially to winning the War on Terror.

    Quote Originally Posted by goldendog View Post

    Please expain the negative aspects of having "openly gay citizens" serving their country and explain just how they might conduct themselves differently than they do currently when the President and congress repeal DADT?
    Why do you want me to do that, exactly? You can get those responses anywhere. Secondly, I already said I support removal of DADT.
    Michael J Petrilli-"Is School Choice Enough?"-A response to the recent timidity of American conservatives toward education reform. https://nationalaffairs.com/publicat...-choice-enough

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    Re: Obama reaffirms will end "Don't ask Don't tell"

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    You are at one of those critical junctures to figure out if you can accomplish the goal of having openly gay citizens serve their country, but I think it is an exaggeration to say ''The American people'' are open to this. I am certainly in support of this, but we have to remember this is a controversial subject matter. Expressing support or starting the process to allow open gays in the military will likely require compromises in one area or another in other hot button political issues. Depending on what the parties important to this want, you could see this issue being sidelined.
    This poll is a little over a year old, but I doubt the numbers have changed much: Acceptance of Gay People in Military Grows Dramatically - washingtonpost.com

    Seventy-five percent of Americans in a new Washington Post-ABC News poll said gay people who are open about their sexual orientation should be allowed to serve in the U.S. military, up from 62 percent in early 2001 and 44 percent in 1993.

    Majorities of Democrats, Republicans and independents alike now believe it is acceptable for openly gay people to serve in the U.S. armed forces.
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    Re: Obama reaffirms will end "Don't ask Don't tell"

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    The American people are solidly behind allowing gays to serve openly. This is not an issue that should require a lot of political capital.
    They are? Got a link to those numbers?
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    Re: Obama reaffirms will end "Don't ask Don't tell"

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post

    They are? Got a link to those numbers?
    Seventy-five percent of Americans in a new Washington Post-ABC News poll said gay people who are open about their sexual orientation should be allowed to serve in the U.S. military, up from 62 percent in early 2001 and 44 percent in 1993.

    Acceptance of Gay People in Military Grows Dramatically - washingtonpost.com

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