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Thread: Obama reaffirms will end "Don't ask Don't tell"

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    Re: Obama reaffirms will end "Don't ask Don't tell"

    Quote Originally Posted by SE102 View Post
    What does this mean for those who were removed from service by article 15?
    Since marking the homosexual down as having committed homosexual conduct is the only way to expel them... is there no way these people will have the right to re-enter the military?

    Does anyone that knows more than me know?
    Nothing, because no one was removed by Article 15. Be that as it may, those people were lawfully cashiered from the service, because laws at that time prevented gays from serving openly in the miltiary.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Obama reaffirms will end "Don't ask Don't tell"

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    I got a better idea, since we can't prove a negative, hows about you show us where the president and/or Congress can the criminal code, at will. We'll be waiting. I'm so looking foward to this one.
    Wait...you said yourself that only the judicial branch has the authority to change the UCMJ and now you're saying that you "can't prove a negative"? How can it be a negative? They either can or they cannot. The only way that it would be a negative is if they cannot because those powers were not given to them.

    As for the Congress and Senate (it takes them both to change/add/take out laws) being able to change criminal code all you have to do is read the Constitution.

    As for the President I'm not sure how executive orders work and hence have not commented on that aspect in this thread.
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    Re: Obama reaffirms will end "Don't ask Don't tell"

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Wait...you said yourself that only the judicial branch has the authority to change the UCMJ and now you're saying that you "can't prove a negative"? How can it be a negative? They either can or they cannot. The only way that it would be a negative is if they cannot because those powers were not given to them.

    As for the Congress and Senate (it takes them both to change/add/take out laws) being able to change criminal code all you have to do is read the Constitution.

    As for the President I'm not sure how executive orders work and hence have not commented on that aspect in this thread.
    You asked for me to show you where the Congress and the president can't change the criminal code. I can't prove a negative. It's now upon you to show us where it is written that they can. Just give us some historical exmaples of it taking place; that's all.

    Look, there's he good and solid reason that PBO hasn't abolished DADT: he can't. He's really spoofing people when he makes it sound as if he's going to just get rid of it with a stroke of his pen.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Obama reaffirms will end "Don't ask Don't tell"

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Nothing, because no one was removed by Article 15. Be that as it may, those people were lawfully cashiered from the service, because laws at that time prevented gays from serving openly in the miltiary.
    PLease clarify when you say nobody was removed by article 15. Personal experience tells me otherwise (I must not be clear on some detail).

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    Re: Obama reaffirms will end "Don't ask Don't tell"

    Explain why you can't prove this so-called negative?Surely you can show where congress and the Commaner In Chief can't change stated rules that guide the UCMJ?
    Last edited by goldendog; 10-11-09 at 09:13 PM.

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    Re: Obama reaffirms will end "Don't ask Don't tell"

    Quote Originally Posted by SE102 View Post
    PLease clarify when you say nobody was removed by article 15. Personal experience tells me otherwise (I must not be clear on some detail).
    Because Article 15 isn't what's used to cashier, or otherwise discharge a service member. Article 15 applies to non-judicial punishment, only.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Obama reaffirms will end "Don't ask Don't tell"

    Quote Originally Posted by goldendog View Post
    Explain why you can't prove this so-called negative?Surely you can show where congress and the Commaner In Chief can't change stated rules that guide the UCMJ?
    Show us where they've done it. Give an example. If it's as easy as you say for them to do so, coming up with evidence should be a piece of cake. Surely they've done it before. I mean, hell, if Congress of the president can just change laws at will, what do we need a judicial branch?
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Obama reaffirms will end "Don't ask Don't tell"

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Show us where they've done it. Give an example. If it's as easy as you say for them to do so, coming up with evidence should be a piece of cake. Surely they've done it before.
    They changed it when they implemented DADT in the first place.

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst
    I mean, hell, if Congress of the president can just change laws at will, what do we need a judicial branch?
    To interpret the laws, and to make sure that they are constitutional. The judicial branch plays no part whatsoever in actually writing the laws. God, I can't believe that there are people who A) don't know this basic civics stuff, and B) will argue against it with such certitude, instead of bothering to educate themselves.
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    Re: Obama reaffirms will end "Don't ask Don't tell"

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    You asked for me to show you where the Congress and the president can't change the criminal code. I can't prove a negative. It's now upon you to show us where it is written that they can. Just give us some historical exmaples of it taking place; that's all.

    Look, there's he good and solid reason that PBO hasn't abolished DADT: he can't. He's really spoofing people when he makes it sound as if he's going to just get rid of it with a stroke of his pen.
    Looks to me like the President has used executive order's to change the UCMJ before.

    Changes to MCM (by Presidential Executive order Rule-Making under Article 36, UCMJ):

    o Art 120 – Places burden of raising consent on the defense, adds degrees of rape and maximum punishment dependent upon level of force, and accused state of intoxication is not relevant. Threatening includes use of military position, rank, or authority.

    o Art 125 – amended to be forcible sodomy and sodomy of a child versus all acts of sodomy, consent must be raised by defense (except children under 16 cannot legally consent), degrees of sodomy based on level of force and include use of military position, rank or authority.

    o Art 134 – “Indecent Assault” & “Indecent Acts with a Child” that is a sexual act or sexual contact not amounting to intercourse or sodomy and was done by force. Makes defense raise consent. Degrees of indecent assault recognize the variations in level of force used.

    o Art 134 – Sex-related Offenses. Collects sex-related offenses into one article including adultery, consensual sodomy that is prejudice to good order and discipline, prostitution, patronizing a prostitute, pandering, public intercourse/sodomy, sexual act. A crime if prejudicial to good order and discipline or service discrediting. Additional sex-related offense such as indecent acts, indecent exposure, indecent language, wrongful cohabitation, fraternization, & indecent liberties with a child will also be realigned under this paragraph.

    o RCM 1103A-Creates a new rule establishing procedures for review and guidance for limiting access to sealed exhibits and court-martial proceedings.

    o MRE 412—The military rape-shield law (military rule of evidence 412) change is to make clear that the protections afforded apply to all cases involving sexual offenses where the focus of the offense is on the offender’s conduct.

    o MRE 513 – Psychotherapist-patient privilege change to allow for confidentiality & privilege communications involving sexual assault and domestic violence during UCMJ and non-UCMJ proceedings. Current rule applies only to UCMJ proceedings.
    PDF Link
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    Re: Obama reaffirms will end "Don't ask Don't tell"

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    They changed it when they implemented DADT in the first place.
    And, we all know there's a huge difference between adding to the code and subtracting from the code. Don't we?



    To interpret the laws, and to make sure that they are constitutional. The judicial branch plays no part whatsoever in actually writing the laws. God, I can't believe that there are people who A) don't know this basic civics stuff, and B) will argue against it with such certitude, instead of bothering to educate themselves.
    What I can't believe, is how people can't make an argument without fabricating statements that their opponents never made. Totally blows my mind.

    That being said, please, Mr. Civics, show us where the law allows Congress, or the president to change the UCMJ, at will. Specifically, show us where the president can change the UCMJ via executive order.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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