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Thread: American troops in Afghanistan losing heart, say army chaplains

  1. #101
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    Re: American troops in Afghanistan losing heart, say army chaplains

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend_Hellh0und View Post
    I am still in contact and close to people still serving. I do CQB training several times a year where I assist a well known school in instruction. I talk to many many vets, active duty, and contractors, and it's pretty obvious where they stand.
    A lot probably are not informed or smart enought to know better, sadly. It doesn't mean they aren't good people. They are entitled to their opinion. I'm get mine.


    Uhm, Problem is we are already over there.
    We were not already in Iraq prior to 2003. What are you talking about?

    Would you rather have the hand that feeds, or the hand that fights funding, wont make a decision, calls you murderers, nazis, and war criminals?
    I'm not partisan, so I don't care. All I ask is that if a politicians sends me and my buddies to war, it is to defend our nation against a threat.

    No one has ever called me a nazi (which wouldn't even make sense), war criminal or murderer (although a few Soldiers are).

    I'm not sure what it is that Republicans (or Democrats for that matter, since they all voted to invade Iraq) have done so special for me? What has any Republican done for me that a Democrat hasn't? I am not following the logic of the argument.

    Maybe all that high-level partisan secret stuff that you are privy to that goes on in the halls of Congress and the West Wing hasn't trickled down to my foxhole yet...

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    Re: American troops in Afghanistan losing heart, say army chaplains

    Quote Originally Posted by kansaswhig View Post
    A lot probably are not informed or smart enought to know better, sadly. It doesn't mean they aren't good people. They are entitled to their opinion. I'm get mine.




    We were not already in Iraq prior to 2003. What are you talking about?



    I'm not partisan, so I don't care. All I ask is that if a politicians sends me and my buddies to war, it is to defend our nation against a threat.

    No one has ever called me a nazi (which wouldn't even make sense), war criminal or murderer (although a few Soldiers are).

    I'm not sure what it is that Republicans (or Democrats for that matter, since they all voted to invade Iraq) have done so special for me? What has any Republican done for me that a Democrat hasn't? I am not following the logic of the argument.

    Maybe all that high-level partisan secret stuff that you are privy to that goes on in the halls of Congress and the West Wing hasn't trickled down to my foxhole yet...
    Our troops just don't get it.
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    Re: American troops in Afghanistan losing heart, say army chaplains

    Quote Originally Posted by kansaswhig View Post
    A lot probably are not informed or smart enought to know better, sadly. It doesn't mean they aren't good people. They are entitled to their opinion. I'm get mine.

    Do they believe in, or even know what their mission is?


    We were not already in Iraq prior to 2003. What are you talking about?

    I don't think he was making that claim, however, prior to '03 there were calls for regime change in Iraq from both sides of the isle. The fact that once we started it and the demo's found out that large majorities of their constituents were against it, they changed on a dime, like spineless cowards.


    I'm not partisan, so I don't care. All I ask is that if a politicians sends me and my buddies to war, it is to defend our nation against a threat.

    Do you believe that no threat exists now?


    No one has ever called me a nazi (which wouldn't even make sense), war criminal or murderer (although a few Soldiers are).
    Who are these soldiers? People you know?


    I'm not sure what it is that Republicans (or Democrats for that matter, since they all voted to invade Iraq) have done so special for me? What has any Republican done for me that a Democrat hasn't? I am not following the logic of the argument.

    Aptly funded you, and believed in your capabilities.


    Maybe all that high-level partisan secret stuff that you are privy to that goes on in the halls of Congress and the West Wing hasn't trickled down to my foxhole yet...

    You offer in opinion to some things, yet claim that you don't know on the overall picture.....Quite strange.


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    Re: American troops in Afghanistan losing heart, say army chaplains

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Do they believe in, or even know what their mission is?
    Tactically: Yes, WE usually know the mission; but not necessarily believe in it. I heard a lot more complaints about how much Soldiers hated Iraqis than how much they cared to help them.

    Strategically...no, not normally.



    I don't think he was making that claim
    That's sure how it sounded

    however, prior to '03 there were calls for regime change in Iraq from both sides of the isle. The fact that once we started it and the demo's found out that large majorities of their constituents were against it, they changed on a dime, like spineless cowards.
    True, but that doesn't mean invasion and occupation with a bad plan and too little forces was the answer.

    Do you believe that no threat exists now?
    Where? Iraq?




    Who are these soldiers? People you know?
    Two in my Brigade and at least a dozen in my division.


    You offer in opinion to some things, yet claim that you don't know on the overall picture.....Quite strange.
    If only I were more wise and had all this partisan stuff sorted out, huh?

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    Re: American troops in Afghanistan losing heart, say army chaplains

    Quote Originally Posted by kansaswhig View Post


    apdst said this:

    Kansaswhig is a stud and a man I would follow into combat...


    or at least you thought it...
    You're a gun bunny! There's isn't anywhere to follow you to, 'cept maybe the chow hall...
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: American troops in Afghanistan losing heart, say army chaplains

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    You're a gun bunny! There's isn't anywhere to follow you to, 'cept maybe the chow hall...
    I find this pretty amusing coming from a truck driver and a leg (I'm assuming)

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    Re: American troops in Afghanistan losing heart, say army chaplains

    Quote Originally Posted by kansaswhig View Post
    Tactically: Yes, WE usually know the mission; but not necessarily believe in it. I heard a lot more complaints about how much Soldiers hated Iraqis than how much they cared to help them.

    Strategically...no, not normally.

    Maybe you need to ask more questions of your Chain?


    True, but that doesn't mean invasion and occupation with a bad plan and too little forces was the answer.

    We from the 101st, current, and former love to see overwhelming force, because it works, and it's just so damned cool. But, as a former member, I know that we on the ground rarely know the big picture, until the objective is achieved. That can be frustrating for sure, but we must trust that we are a force for good. Do you believe that?


    Where? Iraq?

    Islamic fascism


    Two in my Brigade and at least a dozen in my division.

    Read your code of conduct again, if you have knowledge, and haven't turned them in then you are also compliant in their actions.


    If only I were more wise and had all this partisan stuff sorted out, huh?

    I suspect you do. Thinly veiled ignorance is no excuse.

    Gotta hit the road, but will check in later.....Good luck, and Gods speed.


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    Re: American troops in Afghanistan losing heart, say army chaplains

    Quote Originally Posted by kansaswhig View Post
    All I ask is that if a politicians sends me and my buddies to war, it is to defend our nation against a threat.
    There are more than one kind of threat. Regarding Iraq:

    There are military threats: Iraq was marginally one of these kinds of threats, due to the possibility of WMD. It has a run-down ad poorly supplied military after years of sanctions. It turned out they didn't have WMDs, although we weren't sure of that going in.

    Then there are geopolitical threats: Iraq influenced its region. A perpetual threat to Iran it helped militarize Iran's foreign policy. As a threat to Saudi Arabia helped give rise to Wahhabism (along with funding from the Saudi royal family). Assisted various terrorist groups, which represented a strategic threat.

    But more than anything, Iraq was an opportunity for transformation that would impact the region, beyond it being a geopolitical threat. The US military has a long history of entering conflict on this basis: French and Indian War, Civil War, American West, Spanish-American War, Phillipine Insurgency, Central American Countries, Haiti, Cuba, Puerto Rico, etc... Many have been motivated by commercialism. This is not a new set of justifications in American history.

    Men have been going to war for these reasons with honor.

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    Re: American troops in Afghanistan losing heart, say army chaplains

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Maybe you need to ask more questions of your Chain?
    No, I get it. I'm tracking. But not everyone is...particularly the Chain in some cases.


    We from the 101st, current, and former love to see overwhelming force, because it works, and it's just so damned cool. But, as a former member, I know that we on the ground rarely know the big picture, until the objective is achieved. That can be frustrating for sure, but we must trust that we are a force for good. Do you believe that?
    Hooah...but don't be confused. I don't believe the invasion and subsequent occupation of Iraq was immoral. I even believe it could be considered noble. However, I do think it was totally unnecessary. I know 99.99% of our forces served honorably, because we did. We helped a lot of people. I just believe it didn't HAVE to happen, which is upsetting. I lost friends. I'm not sure what for.

    Iran, however, I have always believed to be the real enemy. I support military action against them. I'm ready to go.


    Islamic fascism
    I'm not tracking that as a geographical location, nor am I tracking that in Iraq prior to our invasion.



    Read your code of conduct again, if you have knowledge, and haven't turned them in then you are also compliant in their actions.
    I would have. All incidents I'm talking about were widely publicized. I'm sure you heard about the guys in Strike BDE and Rakkasans. Probably not Bastogne, but we had ours too. (LT/PSG execute Iraqi POW)



    I suspect you do. Thinly veiled ignorance is no excuse.
    You are right. I understand it very well (all to well) and despise it. It's easier just to forget about it all and pretend like I never knew.

    Gotta hit the road, but will check in later.....Good luck, and Gods speed.
    Air Assault, sir.

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    Re: American troops in Afghanistan losing heart, say army chaplains

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    There are military threats: Iraq was marginally one of these kinds of threats, due to the possibility of WMD. It has a run-down ad poorly supplied military after years of sanctions. It turned out they didn't have WMDs, although we weren't sure of that going in.
    I will never believe that. Never. It was the right time b/c of the opportunity and the political climate.

    Then there are geopolitical threats: Iraq influenced its region.
    I agree, which makes the war even more perplexing.

    A perpetual threat to Iran it helped militarize Iran's foreign policy.
    The real enemy, IMO

    As a threat to Saudi Arabia helped give rise to Wahhabism (along with funding from the Saudi royal family). Assisted various terrorist groups, which represented a strategic threat.
    More assholes

    But more than anything, Iraq was an opportunity for transformation that would impact the region, beyond it being a geopolitical threat.
    If that's what the goal was, then why didn't we say that?

    The US military has a long history of entering conflict on this basis: French and Indian War, Civil War, American West, Spanish-American War, Phillipine Insurgency, Central American Countries, Haiti, Cuba, Puerto Rico, etc... Many have been motivated by commercialism. This is not a new set of justifications in American history.
    Most of those examples are not applicable. Iraq is unique because we pre-emptively invaded another soveriegn nation. The commercialism link I don't get.

    Men have been going to war for these reasons with honor.
    I'm glad you can speak on their behalf
    Last edited by kansaswhig; 10-17-09 at 03:27 PM.

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