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Thread: Egypt set to ban Bhurka

  1. #21
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    Re: Egypt set to ban Bhurka

    Quote Originally Posted by Oftencold View Post
    Is honey halal? I'll have to look that up.
    not when used to glaze a pork chop

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    Re: Egypt set to ban Bhurka

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Historically, schooling was the domain of the church. Hence the church limited access to "selected subjects", usually the elite and left the masses in a state of stupidity. Stupid people are easier to convince that the earth is flat, and the woman who has an opinion is a witch.

    I am not saying anything about religious run schools today in the Christian world although I am against those that brain wash their pupils with religious stupidity. Am I worried when religious bull**** is used in higher education and accepted as a "good school".. you bet I am, but so far this lunacy is only evident in the US. What worries me the most is when religious lunacy is being pushed in armed forces.. that scares the crap out of me.

    However in the Islamic world, the poor parts of society has for the most part one source of education.. schools run by Islamic clergy. This is a problem, just as it was a problem 500+ years ago in Europe. This means that religion is taught above basic educational skills and things like logic and science. This is the single biggest way to keep people "dumb" and hence under the control of the religious fanatics. It is especially evident when it comes to women who are often denied any education at all, since religious schools often dont accept women because they believe they do not "deserve" an education.

    As I stated, when society dumped the church, then society grew. Women were freed from the male dominated church inspired shackles and the masses were given (slowly) access to basic education. It is sad how many people forget how influential the Church once was and how it held back humanity for centuries.
    I will accept that the staTe of education in the Muslim world today is akin to that in EUROPE 500 years ago. There is a problem if and when religious schools are the only venue for education. And yes religions are in the business of growing in the number of beleivers so they will indoctrinate.

    "THE CHURCH did indeed do some horrific things in the past in the name of GOD. In Western and central Europe the Church supported the feudal system. In the Ruissian Empire the Church told the serfs that it was the Czars right to freakin "own" them for all practical purposes.

    There were areas of Europe where the local bishop considered it his right to deflower a woman who was about to be marrried.

    Now the Muslims are doing some stupid assed things in the name of GO/ALLAH .
    I do not recall the Viet Cong asking me if I was a natural born or Naturalized American before they shot at me, they just shot at all of us f107HyperSabr

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    Re: Egypt set to ban Bhurka

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Historically, schooling was the domain of the church. Hence the church limited access to "selected subjects", usually the elite and left the masses in a state of stupidity. Stupid people are easier to convince that the earth is flat, and the woman who has an opinion is a witch.

    I am not saying anything about religious run schools today in the Christian world although I am against those that brain wash their pupils with religious stupidity. Am I worried when religious bull**** is used in higher education and accepted as a "good school".. you bet I am, but so far this lunacy is only evident in the US. What worries me the most is when religious lunacy is being pushed in armed forces.. that scares the crap out of me.

    However in the Islamic world, the poor parts of society has for the most part one source of education.. schools run by Islamic clergy. This is a problem, just as it was a problem 500+ years ago in Europe. This means that religion is taught above basic educational skills and things like logic and science. This is the single biggest way to keep people "dumb" and hence under the control of the religious fanatics. It is especially evident when it comes to women who are often denied any education at all, since religious schools often dont accept women because they believe they do not "deserve" an education.

    As I stated, when society dumped the church, then society grew. Women were freed from the male dominated church inspired shackles and the masses were given (slowly) access to basic education. It is sad how many people forget how influential the Church once was and how it held back humanity for centuries.
    Now let's your sources for everything you just said.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
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    Re: Egypt set to ban Bhurka

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    It'll be a shock to women who have worn these their whole lives, to suddenly not be allowed to wear them. Just when does the government get to decide what a person does and doesn't wear? The niqab isn't an issue of public safety so the government should stay out of it.
    The ban doesnt actually have a problem with whats being worn...but the forces behind why its being worn. Its also a radical interpretation of Islam, and though it may not address the root of the problem unless we intend to chuck every Muslim into a rehab centre, its more than enough to get your discerning Bhurka wearer out of the country, unless you intend to welcome such types rather then have them out. The same ban was implemented in the 20's during the rise of the Secular Republic of Turkey under Ataturk after the collapse of the Ottoman empire, well before the Western Euros thought of doing it, and it has contributed greatly to Turkeys efforts of seperating and moderating religion in society. It doesnt violate any UN human rights laws and nothing states on paper that it is unacceptable to ban such a thing.
    Last edited by kaya'08; 10-07-09 at 10:49 AM.
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    Re: Egypt set to ban Bhurka

    Quote Originally Posted by kaya'08 View Post
    BBC NEWS | Middle East | Egypt cleric 'to ban full veils'



    The niqab question reportedly arose when Sheikh Tantawi was visiting a girls' school in Cairo at the weekend and asked one of the students to remove her niqab.

    The Egyptian newspaper al-Masri al-Yom quoted him expressing surprise at the girl's attire and telling her it was merely a tradition, with no connection to religion or the Koran.

    I think that having the religious hierarchy speak out against this practice is what is needed.

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    Re: Egypt set to ban Bhurka

    Quote Originally Posted by kaya'08 View Post
    The ban doesnt actually have a problem with whats being worn...but the forces behind why its being worn. Its also a radical interpretation of Islam, and though it may not address the root of the problem unless we intend to chuck every Muslim into a rehab centre, its more than enough to get your discerning Bhurka wearer out of the country, unless you intend to welcome such types rather then have them out. The same ban was implemented in the 20's during the rise of the Secular Republic of Turkey under Ataturk after the collapse of the Ottoman empire, well before the Western Euros thought of doing it, and it has contributed greatly to Turkeys efforts of seperating and moderating religion in society. It doesnt violate any UN human rights laws and nothing states on paper that it is unacceptable to ban such a thing.
    The State banning it does nothing but infringe upon expression of religion. If the religious sect bans it, it's a bit different as that's representative of a fundamental shift in the ideals of that sect. You don't addres the problem, and the problem isn't addressed by chucking every Muslim into PC re-education camp. The problem is theocracy.
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    Re: Egypt set to ban Bhurka

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    The State banning it does nothing but infringe upon expression of religion. If the religious sect bans it, it's a bit different as that's representative of a fundamental shift in the ideals of that sect. You don't addres the problem, and the problem isn't addressed by chucking every Muslim into PC re-education camp. The problem is theocracy.
    But, if the theocracy self-adjusts to adopt a more secular stance, that is ideal.

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    Re: Egypt set to ban Bhurka

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    But, if the theocracy self-adjusts to adopt a more secular stance, that is ideal.
    That's moving away from theocracy. But a State banning something like the Bhurka isn't a move in that direction. It's still implementing religious based law, which is a hallmark of a theocracy. If the problem is how women are treated or oppression of women, you have to make laws which free them from those chains. Merely banning a burka does nothing for that cause, it's a band-aid solution.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Egypt set to ban Bhurka

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    That's moving away from theocracy. But a State banning something like the Bhurka isn't a move in that direction. It's still implementing religious based law, which is a hallmark of a theocracy. If the problem is how women are treated or oppression of women, you have to make laws which free them from those chains. Merely banning a burka does nothing for that cause, it's a band-aid solution.
    It's actually worse than a bandaid, because in terms of social policy, for every action we take, there is a reaction. In the case of the state banning religious garments, it feeds religious paranoia and creates a backlash that leads to a militant culture directed at the state. Look at the U.S. population of fundies for examples. They feel "under attack," and thus have gotten even more strident and militant. Jesus Camp is a good example.

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    Re: Egypt set to ban Bhurka

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    The State banning it does nothing but infringe upon expression of religion. If the religious sect bans it, it's a bit different as that's representative of a fundamental shift in the ideals of that sect. You don't addres the problem, and the problem isn't addressed by chucking every Muslim into PC re-education camp. The problem is theocracy.
    Is it a religion, though?

    The underlying problem cannot be resolved unless we intend to reducate them all, for the love of God. What else do you propose? Public awareness programmes? Please!
    "If religious instruction were not allowed until the child had attained the age of reason, we would be living in quite a different world" - Christopher Hitchens
    > Good to be back, but I'm only visiting for a few weeks. <

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