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Thread: 47% will pay no federal income tax

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    Re: 47% will pay no federal income tax

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe1991 View Post
    What's even worse is that most corporations don't pay corporate taxes:

    "93.9 percent of U.S.-controlled companies pay less than 5 percent of its income in taxes; 63 percent pay no tax at all."

    Do corporations pay too little in taxes? - Atlanta Business Chronicle:
    We discussed this article back when it came out - it horribly misunderstands how most business are operated/organized. Most "corporations" are one man shops that earn little or no profit each year or distribute their profits as income to the owners, who then pay income tax on it. Furthermore, it calculates the numbers on gross income rather than profit, which is absolutely idiotic.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    It is hardly counter productive.

    For one everyone has a stake in society by paying taxes, whatever the size they pay. If you have large portions of the populace avoiding paying any income taxes then you will create a two tier society causing all sorts of perception problems. Those not paying taxes will think it is better not to earn more since that would mean they had to pay taxes and those earning enough to pay taxes will be pissed at the latter because they are avoiding taxes. No one likes tax dodgers.
    My point is that this already happens all the time. The more you force lower earners to pay taxes up front, the more likely they will be to work off the books.

    I agree it is not very efficient, however in this case efficiency must give away for fairness.
    How is it less fair if the end result is the same? If we decide that families of 4 earning $10k actually need $20k to survive, how is it more or less fair to charge them $2k in taxes before giving them $12k than to charge them $0 in taxes and then give them $10k?

    Plus everything is done electronically these days so the administrative stuff is rather minimum. In Denmark companies and banks report what they pay in wages and via the tax paper that every employee has to provide the company, the company on behalf of the tax man, takes the require tax and pays it to the tax man. It is all done automatically.
    This is exactly how it works here. The problem is that this doesn't cover the millions of people who work off the books.

    The whole idea, is that everyone, from the paper boy to the CEO pays income taxes in some way and hence contributes to society.
    How is "everyone contributing to society" more when it's the $8/12 example above as opposed to the $10/10 example? The end result is exactly the same.
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

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    Re: 47% will pay no federal income tax

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    We discussed this article back when it came out - it horribly misunderstands how most business are operated/organized. Most "corporations" are one man shops that earn little or no profit each year or distribute their profits as income to the owners, who then pay income tax on it. Furthermore, it calculates the numbers on gross income rather than profit, which is absolutely idiotic.
    Correct. My company is an S corporation, and I am taxed directly, as personal income, on my half of the yearly profits. This is on top of the income tax on the salary that I pay myself.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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    Re: 47% will pay no federal income tax

    Quote Originally Posted by Cremaster77 View Post
    Roughly 47 percent of households, or 71 million, will not owe any federal income tax for 2009

    Okay. I'm all for a progressive tax system. But how can it possibly be good for the country when so many voters don't have to pony up any skin in the game? The problem we have with our government is that people vote for politicians who promise to give them things for free. And those that have the guts to try to take stuff away from people immediately get voted out of office. I understand that some people in this country simply can't afford any taxes. But half of the population? No wonder we get the government we get. We get what we pay for, which for almost half of the population is nothing.
    The scary truth, which no democrat will ever admit, is that federal income tax is only a small (15% or so) part of the national budget. Most funding comes from taxes on sales, liquors, tobacco, and various tariffs.

    Income tax was created to fund World War I and was supposed to be dropped after the war. However, some greedy scumbags decided to make it permanent.

    Federal income tax is not really needed to run the country. It's just a tool of partisan politics.

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    Re: 47% will pay no federal income tax

    Quote Originally Posted by Vader View Post
    The scary truth, which no democrat will ever admit, is that federal income tax is only a small (15% or so) part of the national budget. Most funding comes from taxes on sales, liquors, tobacco, and various tariffs.
    Yes regressive taxes where the poor pay in more are the norm.

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    Re: 47% will pay no federal income tax

    Quote Originally Posted by winston53660 View Post
    Yes regressive taxes where the poor pay in more are the norm.
    That's not an inherent problem with those taxes. That's entirely behavioral.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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    Re: 47% will pay no federal income tax

    Quote Originally Posted by winston53660 View Post
    Yes regressive taxes where the poor pay in more are the norm.
    Very true.

    Sad .... indeed... but true. Thus is the true nature of the democrats.

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    Re: 47% will pay no federal income tax

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    We discussed this article back when it came out - it horribly misunderstands how most business are operated/organized. Most "corporations" are one man shops that earn little or no profit each year or distribute their profits as income to the owners, who then pay income tax on it. Furthermore, it calculates the numbers on gross income rather than profit, which is absolutely idiotic.



    My point is that this already happens all the time. The more you force lower earners to pay taxes up front, the more likely they will be to work off the books.



    How is it less fair if the end result is the same? If we decide that families of 4 earning $10k actually need $20k to survive, how is it more or less fair to charge them $2k in taxes before giving them $12k than to charge them $0 in taxes and then give them $10k?



    This is exactly how it works here. The problem is that this doesn't cover the millions of people who work off the books.



    How is "everyone contributing to society" more when it's the $8/12 example above as opposed to the $10/10 example? The end result is exactly the same.

    That is "don't tax my business" republican rhetoric. Businesses earn plenty of profit.

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    Re: 47% will pay no federal income tax

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    My point is that this already happens all the time. The more you force lower earners to pay taxes up front, the more likely they will be to work off the books.
    I disagree.. depends on the people. In Denmark everyone has a minimum deductible aka, the first X thousand is tax free and you can either use that limit monthly or pay no taxes until the limit is reached. However that limit is lower than the minimum wage for example. For example in Denmark when I was a part time post man during my studies, I had a monthly deductible of about 3200 kr. (currency does not matter in this example, the principle). If I only worked the minimum hours as required by my contract then I would pay no taxes (other than the mandatory workers tax.. its like 30kr a month). If I got more hours then I would breach the limit of my deductible and anything over the deductible I would pay 37% in taxes. If I went totally nuts and worked near full time, then at some point my wages earned over the next step would be taxed by 47% instead of 37%.. and so on. But in all this I knew I was contributing to society because I was in the tax system and I did pay minimal taxes. And that is the point.

    How is it less fair if the end result is the same? If we decide that families of 4 earning $10k actually need $20k to survive, how is it more or less fair to charge them $2k in taxes before giving them $12k than to charge them $0 in taxes and then give them $10k?
    As I said, people have to feel they are contributing to society via taxes and that everyone around them is in some way contributing. For example your family. If you give them 10k to survive on top of the 10k they earn, and they pay no taxes what so ever, then they would never feel what it is like to pay taxes like the rest of us. They would be leeches on society with no concept on the burden the rest of us have.

    Where as if you gave them 12k and charged them 2k in taxes, they would say.. damn I had to pay 2 k in freaking taxes on a freaking handout.. and they would know how we feel when our taxes go to that handout.

    This is exactly how it works here. The problem is that this doesn't cover the millions of people who work off the books.
    That is lack of accountability. If the companies allow such "off the books" and do not get busted and fined for it, then they will continue to do so. Its the same principle as your illegal immigration problem. In Denmark we also have the problem like everyone else, however it is at the real low level.. pizza bars and stuff, since the consequences of getting caught can be very high. People have actually gone to jail for hiring off the books. The main problem of the "dark economy" is friends giving friends help.. a plummer doing work for a carpenter and visa versa. That is much harder to deal with.

    How is "everyone contributing to society" more when it's the $8/12 example above as opposed to the $10/10 example? The end result is exactly the same.
    Not it is not. You are thinking in absolute money terms. I am talking about mentality.

    Another example. The paper boy. He will know that the first X thousand is tax free like anyone else, but he still has to hand in his tax papers to the company or he WILL be automatically taxed 60% of his income for not doing so. Therefore it is up to the person to prove that he has a deductible via the tax papers everyone has (basically telling the company which way he wants to use his deductible). If the company does not receive those papers then they are required by law to take 60% in taxes. The point is that every single person will feel that they are participating every day, every 14 days or every month in the tax system regardless if they earn under the deductible or over it. That feeling is priceless if you ask me, since everyone feels they have a vested interest in society.
    PeteEU

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    Re: 47% will pay no federal income tax

    Quote Originally Posted by Vader View Post
    That is "don't tax my business" republican rhetoric. Businesses earn plenty of profit.
    Which businesses, and how much?
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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    Re: 47% will pay no federal income tax

    Quote Originally Posted by Vader View Post
    The scary truth, which no democrat will ever admit, is that federal income tax is only a small (15% or so) part of the national budget. Most funding comes from taxes on sales, liquors, tobacco, and various tariffs.
    This is absolutely false.

    Last edited by RightinNYC; 10-04-09 at 06:17 PM.
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

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