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Thread: Ireland votes 'yes' to EU and Lisbon

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    Thumbs down Ireland votes 'yes' to EU and Lisbon

    Ireland has given a "clear and resounding" backing to the Lisbon Treaty, Brian Cowen, the Irish prime minister, has declared 18 months after voters rejected the EU reform plan.

    Ireland votes 'Yes' to EU Lisbon Treaty - Telegraph

    Sad day


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    Re: Ireland votes 'yes' to EU and Lisbon

    In short words, can someone explain to me the major consequences of this vote?
    "The darkest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their neutrality in times of moral crisis."

    Dante Alighieri

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    Re: Ireland votes 'yes' to EU and Lisbon

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    In short words, can someone explain to me the major consequences of this vote?

    Now Ireland has passed this constitution, Poland and Czechs will ratify and pass it through unless Czechs delay it

    To put it in simple terms: We're ****ed.

    Europe is at the beginning of a superstate/federal Europe. Yay

    We will have a permanent unelected but chosen/appointed President. We will no longer be able to block many of the legislation Brussels passes through.
    Redistribution of voting between the member states, New powers for the European Commission/Parliament and ECoJ and it goes on.

    This is so similar to the consitution that they tried passing through years ago and was rejected.

    This is a self amending constitution.
    Last edited by Laila; 10-03-09 at 01:24 PM.


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    Re: Ireland votes 'yes' to EU and Lisbon

    Quote Originally Posted by Laila View Post
    Europe is at the beginning of a superstate/federal Europe. Yay
    Hardly. Most of the changes are administrative because of a growing EU.

    We will have a permanent unelected but chosen/appointed President.
    Who is an administrative head nothing more nothing less. He has zero power. He is more like an office administrator and funny enough he reports directly to the elected European Parliament.. which btw will be given much much more power on EU issues now with the treaty.... the power is actually moving away from the Commission to the Parliament, and the anti-EU crowd are screaming lack of democracy?..

    We will no longer be able to block many of the legislation Brussels passes through.
    On key issues there will still be veto power. On non key issues it is true the veto power will be removed, but this has been going on for decades. It started already in 1992.

    Personally I am a bit torn. I like the veto part in some cases, security, relations, and so on, but when the veto is used as a political tool by forces for domestic politics and prevents needed changes that benefit all. then well. We saw the pitfalls of the veto power by the Poles during the discussions of this treaty. They simply refused for a long time, along with the Irish funny enough, to discuss anything that matters if they did not get "Christianity" as the official religion in the treaty. It was only after almost all the other members started to get real pissed that the small catholic alliance broke apart and the Poles were left standing there as the idiots they were at the time.

    On top of that, I dont see the need to have veto on say the size of a Euro crate or something similar.. just silly.

    Redistribution of voting between the member states, New powers for the European Commission/Parliament and ECoJ and it goes on.
    Kinda needed changes. It is funny how the anti-EU crowd rant about the undemocratic powers of the EU, and yet oppose everything that expands democracy and fairness in the EU.. it boggles the mind. I guess they are pissed over that 38 million poles get the same relative voting rights as 60 million Brits..

    As for "new powers". The over all "power structure" balance between countries and the EU are not changed in any significant way. The biggest change is probably the incorporation of the European Convention on Human Rights into the EU treaty. That is hardly a mind boggling change, since all countries follow that treaty any ways and most older countries in the EU were founder members of the treaty.. and in the case of the UK.. was the power behind the whole thing.... unless the anti-EU crowd are some how against human rights? There are of course other changes, but nothing that really matter. I mean making the ECB an official institution matters how exactly? Reforming the ECoJ so it is easier to access is exactly bad how?

    This is so similar to the consitution that they tried passing through years ago and was rejected.
    Of course it is. The whole point of the constitution and this treaty is to move the EU into the 21st century with 20+ members instead of living in 1992.
    PeteEU

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    Re: Ireland votes 'yes' to EU and Lisbon

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    I guess they are pissed over that 38 million poles get the same relative voting rights as 60 million Brits..
    I'll be frank.
    I don't think Poland and the other teenie and insignificant countries in Europe should have the same power as the major countries in Europe like Germany, France, UK.

    The needs of Britain cannot be met if we have to cater to the tiny countries and yes, UK should reserve its right to veto as should Germany and France.
    UK pays alot into Europe. More than Poland i'll bloody bet as well, we should have more say on what happens with that money otherwise if we get one vote and Poland gets one vote. Make sure the same amount of money is taken from ALL countries. So if we are paying 4bn+. Those small countries should pay the same amount
    Last edited by Laila; 10-03-09 at 01:56 PM.


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    Re: Ireland votes 'yes' to EU and Lisbon

    Quote Originally Posted by Laila View Post
    I'll be frank.
    I don't think Poland and the other teenie and insignificant countries in Europe should have the same power as the major countries in Europe like Germany, France, UK.
    I see. So because Poland "only" has 38 million people, then it is a "teenie and insignificant"? And you do know how voting is done in the EU right?

    The needs of Britain cannot be met if we have to cater to the tiny countries and yes, UK should reserve its right to veto as should Germany and France.
    Why? You sound highly imperialistic here.. or is it based in some sort of xenophobia or racism? What makes the UK, France, Germany better than say Spain, Italy, Belgium, Denmark, Sweden or Poland?

    UK pays alot into Europe.
    Well. You pay a few billion pounds yes, but other countries pay more.. France and Germany for example. Italy pays almost as much as the UK. And if we go by per capita, 5ish nations pay more than the UK last I looked, and some MUCH more. So using this excuse is as debunked as Palin's foreign relations credentials.

    More than Poland i'll bloody bet as well, we should have more say on what happens with that money otherwise if we get one vote and Poland gets one vote.
    Okay.

    First off any new voting system wont be put in place before 2014... thanks to Poland. Which mean you can thank Poland for not having a system in place that at present does not do what you basically want...

    Secondly as it stands now, the UK has more votes in the Council of Europe than Poland.. because you have more people. It has always been like this and unless you wack off 30 million Brits then it will remain so.

    Thirdly the requirements for passing stuff under Lisbon are quite complex to meet the various issues in the EU and are designed to protect the smaller countries from the big countries or one single big country from the others. For example, there is no simple majority of countries, but that those countries are at least 65% of the total EU population. And if there are 4 countries against an issue.. then it is blocked. If not all member states participate in the vote, then if the opposition is more than 35% of the population then the issue is blocked.

    So yes, the UK has now and will have in the future more votes than Poland, just as you have more members of the EU parliament than Poland.

    Make sure the same amount of money is taken from ALL countries. So if we are paying 4bn+. Those small countries should pay the same amount
    And now you are being freaking childish. Sorry but why should Denmark pay 4 billion pounds with a population of 5 million people, when the UK has 60+ million? It makes zero sense. I can see the argument for paying the same per capita, but else it is just silly. As it stands now each country pays a sum to the EU depending on your GNI. This in turn means the bigger and better economy you have the more you pay. This is the same principle that funds the UN btw, and most international organisations. You pay what you can afford.

    For example, the EU, including the UK, pumped billions into the Irish and Spanish economies back in the day. Today they are reaching and soon will (if not already) be net contributors to the union. Why? because there GNI has grown so much that the will be paying more into the EU than they are receiving.

    btw, the biggest net gainer from the EU.. which country is that?

    Now I understand that conservatives get rubbed the wrong way about "paying for others" principle, but that is how it is, whether it is internally in the UK or in the EU. London and the main cities have always paid in some way for the rural underfunded areas of the UK, whether it is for rail tracks or roads or what not.

    The only real difference is that the EU actually gets stuff done when it comes to helping poor and under funded regions, where as national governments tend to sweep it under the rug.. Scotland and Wales are grinding examples in the UK along with Northern Ireland.
    PeteEU

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    Re: Ireland votes 'yes' to EU and Lisbon

    Quote Originally Posted by Laila View Post
    Make sure the same amount of money is taken from ALL countries. So if we are paying 4bn+. Those small countries should pay the same amount
    Actually, the economies of Poland, Czech, Bulgaria, etc. are dependent on EU financing; they are TAKING OUT of EU.

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    Re: Ireland votes 'yes' to EU and Lisbon

    Quote Originally Posted by Elena View Post
    Actually, the economies of Poland, Czech, Bulgaria, etc. are dependent on EU financing; they are TAKING OUT of EU.
    For now. Poland and Czech are growing so fast that it wont be long that they will become net contributors I bet. As for Bulgaria.. yea, it is the 21st century "Spain" or "Greece"..

    Also you must remember, that these nations were not given the same conditions of membership as Spain, Ireland and Greece were when they joined. So they will never receive the same amount of aid as those 3 countries did in relative terms.
    PeteEU

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    Re: Ireland votes 'yes' to EU and Lisbon

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Why? You sound highly imperialistic here.. or is it based in some sort of xenophobia or racism? What makes the UK, France, Germany better than say Spain, Italy, Belgium, Denmark, Sweden or Poland?

    Well. You pay a few billion pounds yes, but other countries pay more.. France and Germany for example. Italy pays almost as much as the UK. And if we go by per capita, 5ish nations pay more than the UK last I looked, and some MUCH more. So using this excuse is as debunked as Palin's foreign relations credentials.
    Nothing imperialist about it and nobody used the word better apart from you.
    Those who pay the most into Europe should get the most say in where that money goes. Pretty simple no.

    So France, Germany, UK and those "5ish" countries


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    Re: Ireland votes 'yes' to EU and Lisbon

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    For now. Poland and Czech are growing so fast that it wont be long that they will become net contributors I bet.
    Don't. Don't bet.

    As a prerequisite to these countries joining the EU they destroyed their industry and agriculture left from their Soviet past; also they surrendered their financial systems to EU. Ever wondered why? Because they were meant to be EU internal colonies supplying Old Europe with cheap labour and buying the goods produced by Old Europe...

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