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Thread: Ireland votes 'yes' to EU and Lisbon

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    Re: Ireland votes 'yes' to EU and Lisbon

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    I'm a distributist; a follower of Catholic social teaching. We invented the term subsidiarity and the EU certainly does not understand it. It shows no respect for the lowest social grouping possible making the decisions. It shows little appreciation for decentralism and in fact is itself against he very idea of subsidiarity as it is not only mostly unnecessary but profoundly dangerous, due to its size and centralism, to genuine decentralism and subsidiarity.

    This vote is a sorty state of affairs but at least we eurosceptics can take comfort in the fact that the fiasco over the EU constitution/Lisbon treaty has shown what the EUroplot really is and that Ireland represents very little as the bastards let no one else vote on the piece of rabid despotism and treason dressed up as a treaty.
    as usual for eurosceptics, this post is the exact opposite of reality

    eurosceptics talk about despotism, while the Lisbon treaty gives more power to the Parliament

    eurosceptics talk about centralization, while treaty after treaty the EU is more and more decentralized (creation of the Comitee of the Regions, more power to National parliaments...)

    eurosceptics talk about a treason, while all the parliaments have voted for these treaties, and while a referendum just accepted it in Ireland

    ...

    the worse part is that it's always the same lie that comes back: EU is "centralized" and "despotic"...guess what, EVERY treaty made the EU more democratically legitimate!!! Can't you read?? It's not even possible to debate, eurosceptics come back with the same false truths again and again!!! Go read the treaties!

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    Re: Ireland votes 'yes' to EU and Lisbon

    Quote Originally Posted by bub View Post
    That is the exact opposite of what you've just said.

    Before the Lisbon treaty, the Parliament had limited powers. The Commission had a lot of power, each state (Luxemburg or Germany) have the same power (one vote each)

    With the progress of the European Integration, the Parliament has got more and more power, which is very democratic since the votes are weighed according to the population of each member state.

    With the Lisbon treaty, 80% of the laws will be co-decided by the Parliament, where UK has got 73 votes while so-called "insignificant" countries like Belgium or Sweden get 22 votes and Germany 96.

    EP seats: Constitutional committee approves proposal
    But i wouldnt exactly see governments making laws through consolation with each other and the european parliament as democracy. Democracy would be a situation in which governments make decisions laws in consoltation with their respective people not with each other. Why do laws have to be made on such a high level anyway? Alot of the powers promised to the autonomous communities in spain are now being taken over by the european union so i dont belive subsidiarity is a principle those running the european union ascribe to.

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    Re: Ireland votes 'yes' to EU and Lisbon

    Quote Originally Posted by Red_Dave View Post
    But i wouldnt exactly see governments making laws through consolation with each other and the european parliament as democracy. Democracy would be a situation in which governments make decisions laws in consoltation with their respective people not with each other.
    What are you talking about?

    -> Is it about the EU Parliament? It is elected by the whole European Union, so it is legitimate that it makes laws for everyone. Now you may ask "is it legitimate that polish or german eurodeputees vote for a law that's gonna affect UK", and I think that the answer is "yes": it's exactly like democracy at the state level (where people from England can vote a decision that's gonna affect Wales or Scotland)

    -> The role of National Parliaments? Don't misunderstand, their role would be to check if the EU law is well applied by their national governments. The French parliament isn't gonna vote a decision that will be applied in UK.

    Why do laws have to be made on such a high level anyway?
    You don't make rules about global finance, trade agreements or terrorism at the local level. Bournemouth isn't gonna send diplomats at the rounds of Doha, and Dorchester isn't gonna send people in order to negociate in international conferences about terrorism.

    Alot of the powers promised to the autonomous communities in spain are now being taken over by the european union so i dont belive subsidiarity is a principle those running the european union ascribe to.
    bear in mind that the "competences" of the EU are usually "shared", not "exclusive". Only some points are ruled collectively, most of the stuff is actually decided at a much lower level

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    Re: Ireland votes 'yes' to EU and Lisbon

    Quote Originally Posted by bub View Post
    What are you talking about?

    -> Is it about the EU Parliament? It is elected by the whole European Union, so it is legitimate that it makes laws for everyone. Now you may ask "is it legitimate that polish or german eurodeputees vote for a law that's gonna affect UK", and I think that the answer is "yes": it's exactly like democracy at the state level (where people from England can vote a decision that's gonna affect Wales or Scotland)

    -> The role of National Parliaments? Don't misunderstand, their role would be to check if the EU law is well applied by their national governments. The French parliament isn't gonna vote a decision that will be applied in UK.



    You don't make rules about global finance, trade agreements or terrorism at the local level. Bournemouth isn't gonna send diplomats at the rounds of Doha, and Dorchester isn't gonna send people in order to negociate in international conferences about terrorism.



    bear in mind that the "competences" of the EU are usually "shared", not "exclusive". Only some points are ruled collectively, most of the stuff is actually decided at a much lower level
    I was talking about the european commission. The european parliament cant do anything except make joint decisions with the european commission, and thats excluding the 20% of decisions that the european commission will still be able to legislate on by its self.

    Most of the laws the european union makes have little to do with international finance. Laws governing how many hours we can work or how we label our fire extinguishers are examples of this. Even if it was just the european parliament making the decisions i still wouldnt be happy with it. What would be the sence of those who have never visted a country writing its legislation? MEPS from northern ireland have no knowledge of the situation on the ground in poland so have no place voting on laws that effect it, the same principle applies visa versa.

    If your talking about how europe is represented internationally then i dont see how domestic legislation has anything to do with this. As regards doha etc what would be so bad about each country representing itself?
    Last edited by Red_Dave; 10-04-09 at 05:05 PM.

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    Re: Ireland votes 'yes' to EU and Lisbon

    Quote Originally Posted by Red_Dave View Post
    I was talking about the european commission. The european parliament cant do anything except make joint decisions with the european commission, and thats excluding the 20% of decisions that the european commission will still be able to legislate on by its self.
    Before the Lisbon treaty, the Commission had much more power. You should be happy about the growing role of the Parliament! Oh, and "co-decision" means that the Parliament can veto the decision!

    Most of the laws the european union makes have little to do with international finance. Laws governing how many hours we can work or how we label our fire extinguishers are examples of this.
    Is there a particular way to label fire extinguishers in Wessex? Is that really what some people call their "culture"?!

    As for working hours...is there a real difference between your parliament taking this decision, or a wider parliament?


    Even if it was just the european parliament making the decisions i still wouldnt be happy with it. What would be the sence of those who have never visted a country writing its legislation? MEPS from northern ireland have no knowledge of the situation on the ground in poland so have no place voting on laws that effect it, the same principle applies visa versa.
    It's not just the Eurodeputees who make the laws. Before each law, thousands of people from all over Europe study the situation (on average it takes 2 years) and take into account the opinion of people from all over Europe, then it's voted by deputees coming from all over Europe.

    I guess the real factor that makes the eurodeputees approve or disapprove EU legislation is political (liberals vs socialists...), not the nationality (Brits vs French...).


    If your talking about how europe is represented internationally then i dont see how domestic legislation has anything to do with this.
    it's not just about international representation. If we want to fight crime better, our polices have to cooperate. If we want to make trade agreements with China without being screwed, we have to cooperate.

    As regards doha etc what would be so bad about each country representing itself?
    You still may have the impression that UK or France still count at the international level, but that is less and less true. What can France alone do against China (not just militarily, but also politically)? What can Poland do against Russia, if Medvedev decides that he triples the price of gaz? We have to cooperate if we want to be relevant!

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    Re: Ireland votes 'yes' to EU and Lisbon

    Quote Originally Posted by bub View Post
    Before the Lisbon treaty, the Commission had much more power. You should be happy about the growing role of the Parliament! Oh, and "co-decision" means that the Parliament can veto the decision!



    Is there a particular way to label fire extinguishers in Wessex? Is that really what some people call their "culture"?!

    As for working hours...is there a real difference between your parliament taking this decision, or a wider parliament?




    It's not just the Eurodeputees who make the laws. Before each law, thousands of people from all over Europe study the situation (on average it takes 2 years) and take into account the opinion of people from all over Europe, then it's voted by deputees coming from all over Europe.

    I guess the real factor that makes the eurodeputees approve or disapprove EU legislation is political (liberals vs socialists...), not the nationality (Brits vs French...).




    it's not just about international representation. If we want to fight crime better, our polices have to cooperate. If we want to make trade agreements with China without being screwed, we have to cooperate.



    You still may have the impression that UK or France still count at the international level, but that is less and less true. What can France alone do against China (not just militarily, but also politically)? What can Poland do against Russia, if Medvedev decides that he triples the price of gaz? We have to cooperate if we want to be relevant!
    OK the fire extinguishers may seam like a pretty obscure example but I think they illustrate a wider principle so allow me to elaborate. In the past all fire extinguishers in the UK were colour coded so this meant that those using them would instantly know which fire extinguisher to use depending on the type of material that was on fire. Now however all fire extinguishers across the E.U will be homogenized and use a system of small labels which will be difficult to use in a panic if your used to the previous system. Thus we,re paying billions of pounds a year for the european union to make us less safe.

    I brought it up because its an example of the E.U legislating on issues that would be better handeld on a national level. If the E.U endorses the principle of subsidiarity why is this even within their remit? This law was made by people who had no understanding of what those following it actually needed because they where so far removed from their lives. This again calls into question whether it is particually sensibile for people in Northern Ireland to govern people in Poland. They have probably never even visted the country so why should they make laws for it? So as regards working hours there is a difference between the E.U parliament and ours in that our parliament was voted for by us.

    Im all for cooperating on issues like crime and maybe even trade agreements (though when it comes to trade agreements it tends to be the E.U screwing other parts of the world than visa versa) but it would be possible to do this without an insitution that interfers with other issues unessisarily. Surely it would be possible to gang up on russia without having to share the same laws.

    Though when it comes to foriegn policy there have always been issues with accountability even on a national level (i can elaborate on this). Im not aware of any european foriegn policy decision having ever been swayed by public opionion. In fact its difficult for public opionion to change european policy on anything given that there is no europe-wide civil society, and there probably never will be unless we all learn Esperanto

    Ultimatly the the issue for me is that in the absence of this civil society decissions will be made in the absence of any kind of accountabilty. This is unlikely to mean they are made in the interest of the majority of those they govern, on the contrary they will simply be made in the interests of the rich and powerful
    Last edited by Red_Dave; 10-04-09 at 06:28 PM.

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    Re: Ireland votes 'yes' to EU and Lisbon

    Quote Originally Posted by Red_Dave View Post
    OK the fire extinguishers may seam like a pretty obscure example but I think they illustrate a wider principle so allow me to elaborate. In the past all fire extinguishers in the UK were colour coded so this meant that those using them would instantly know which fire extinguisher to use depending on the type of material that was on fire. Now however all fire extinguishers across the E.U will be homogenized and use a system of small labels which will be difficult to use in a panic if your used to the previous system. Thus we,re paying billions of pounds a year for the european union to make us less safe.
    I couldn't find the law about fire extinguishers but here's one about boat safety, have a look at the first lines

    EUR-Lex - - EN

    the aim is ALWAYS to enhance safety. I don't know how your fire extinguishers looked like, but I really doubt they're less useful than before. There is probably a different code, and it may be strange at the begining, but I really doubt it's less good than before: one of the methods used to make the EU law is to observe what's being done in the 27 MS. Then, we pick the best legislation, and apply it to everyone. And most of the times, the MS are free to decide on how they apply the legislation, since it only gives a set of goals to achieve.

    I brought it up because its an example of the E.U legislating on issues that would be better handeld on a national level. If the E.U endorses the principle of subsidiarity why is this even within their remit? This law was made by people who had no understanding of what those following it actually needed because they where so far removed from their lives.
    You can live in Glasgow or in Tegucigalpa, a fire is a fire.

    This again calls into question whether it is particually sensibile for people in Northern Ireland to govern people in Poland.
    People from Northern Ireland don't and will never govern Poland!!!! Every Member State has got eurodeputees in the EU Parliament! If Polish people are unhappy about something, they'll vote against it!

    If Polish people happen to be the only ones who are against a legislation about fire extinguishers, bad luck for them, but in the other cases they'll have more influence over the rest of the world, because in these other cases they'll be together with Germany, UK and France, and not alone.

    And once more, that's the same at the national level: replace "Northern Ireland" by Glasgow and "Poland" by Edimburgh and you have it! It's the same! Sometimes, a law is voted in London, and that law happens to be appreciated by people from Glasgow and not by people from Edimburgh! But that's democracy! You can't always win!




    Im all for cooperating on issues like crime and maybe even trade agreements (though when it comes to trade agreements it tends to be the E.U screwing other parts of the world than visa versa)
    If there wasn't the EU, we'd be the screwed ones.



    Though when it comes to foriegn policy there have always been issues with accountability even on a national level (i can elaborate on this). Im not aware of any european foriegn policy decision having ever been swayed by public opionion. In fact its difficult for public opionion to change european policy on anything given that there is no europe-wide civil society, and there probably never will be unless we all learn Esperanto
    The Political Union is still being built. There are EU elections now! There are Erasmus students! There is an EU TV channel! European farmers are demonstrating together in Brussels!

    It's not perfect and much more should be done indeed, but on the other hand it's just the begining!

    Ultimatly the the issue for me is that in the absence of this civil society decissions will be made in the absence of any kind of accountabilty.
    Everyone in the EU is elected, why do you think that they're not accountable!?!



    This is unlikely to mean they are made in the interest of the majority of those they govern, on the contrary they will simply be made in the interests of the rich and powerful
    How is it different from what's happening at the national level? You don't have lobbys in UK?

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    Re: Ireland votes 'yes' to EU and Lisbon

    Quote Originally Posted by B L Zeebub View Post
    in response to a daft statement.
    The prediction may still prove shockingly wrong. No matter it will be a strong indication of what level the corruption in the EU is at.
    Europe is illegally occupied by the US

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