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Georgia started war with Russia, but Moscow over-reacted, says EU report

Nope. I'm saying that the South Ossetians don't consider their territory part of Georgia. They have no desire to be a part of the country.

I will agree that South Ossetians did not want to be part of georgia but do you actually believe that Russia was being a friend to the South Ossetians ? Or isn't the truth that Russia is just using the South Ossetians in order to attack Georgia. Russia 's aim was to stop the proposed pipeline through GEORGIA and they do not care about another minority such as South Ossetians.
 
I will agree that South Ossetians did not want to be part of georgia but do you actually believe that Russia was being a friend to the South Ossetians ? Or isn't the truth that Russia is just using the South Ossetians in order to attack Georgia. Russia 's aim was to stop the proposed pipeline through GEORGIA and they do not care about another minority such as South Ossetians.

All nations "use" other nations and people for their own political purposes. That is hardly unique to Russia.
 
Of course.



When you say stupid **** like this, it is difficult to take anything else you say seriously.

Well there are 8- 10 million of my ancestors who were murdered through famine by the Russian bastards who take murder seriously.

What I say about Russians may be harsh and true but the truth is never stupid. What I have is tens of milliions of Ukrainian ghosts of those murdered by Russians who say that Russian are murdering bastards.

I also had two Grandfathers who were sent to Siberia by those bastards and I will never forget that.
 
Well there are 8- 10 million of my ancestors who were murdered through famine by the Russian bastards who take murder seriously.

What I say about Russians may be harsh and true but the truth is never stupid. What I have is tens of milliions of Ukrainian ghosts of those murdered by Russians who say that Russian are murdering bastards.

I also had two Grandfathers who were sent to Siberia by those bastards and I will never forget that.

And the United States murdered an entire continent of people. But let's focus on the geopolitics of TODAY.
 
All nations "use" other nations and people for their own political purposes. That is hardly unique to Russia.

On the higher intellectual level that is of course true. Look at what we did to the North AMERICAN Indian Nations ! Look at what China has done and is doing to the Tebetans and others.

I even saw it in Vietnam where the South Vietnamese were oppressing minority tribes.
 
A) South Ossetia is not Chechnya. The former identifies with Russia, the latter does not.
B) It's difficult for them to care about Chechnya when they are facing a war on their own territory, caused by the George Bush of the Caucuses, Mikhail Saakashvili.

I would say that the South Ossetians are leaning toward Russia only becasue they want a "boilshoi bratchyk" to "protect" them.

It is also very likaly that if the Ossetians were contained in basically one area and all under Russia today that gthey very likley would have the same view as the Chechens in that they would want to be free of Russia.

I realize that that is speculation but based on my knowledge, history and understanding of the area that is is good theory.
 
A) South Ossetia is not Chechnya. The former identifies with Russia, the latter does not.
B) It's difficult for them to care about Chechnya when they are facing a war on their own territory, caused by the George Bush of the Caucuses, Mikhail Saakashvili.

I still believe that the Russians who wanted to stop the pipeline spurred the Ossesstians into taking a separist posture.

Saakashvili over reacted but he most likely took the Bsh support way beyond what Bush was giving. Bush gave words and Saakashvili actually thought that he would have American warplanes and partroopers supporting Georgia.

Bush also did not and does not understand the reality of geo politics or history.

Remeber until Bush became POTUS the only foreign country he went to was Mexico.

Mexico - my God idiot college students go to Mexico on sptirng break !!!

The guys go there for the girls soi they are not idiot just following their hormones.
 
I would say that the South Ossetians are leaning toward Russia only becasue they want a "boilshoi bratchyk" to "protect" them.

Protection is often a reason that a smaller nation wants to ally with a larger nation. Nothing inherently wrong with that.

F107HyperSabr said:
It is also very likaly that if the Ossetians were contained in basically one area and all under Russia today that gthey very likley would have the same view as the Chechens in that they would want to be free of Russia.

Why? :confused:
 
I would say that the South Ossetians are leaning toward Russia only because they want a "boilshoi bratchyk" to "protect" them.

Is it not more likely that they are leaning towards Russia because Russia contains North Ossetia where many South Ossetians have relatives?
Additionally, many South Ossetians now reside with the other Ossetians in North Ossetia.

Here is a quote form a random article I googled:
"Thousands of South Ossetians fled to the North in the 1990s amid the violence that followed the declaration of independence. North Ossetia maintains strong ethnic links with the territory. "

My only point in quoting it is to demonstrate the "ethnic links".

During the election, the statements by McCain fed to him by his Georgian lobbyist advisor quickly became my largest reasons for fearing him.
McCain sought to include Georgia in NATO while Georgia was already occupied by the Russian military. Technically this would have commit us to a war with Russia the moment they joined.
They failed to mention that Georgia attacked first.
And still to this day continue to fail to mention the existence of North Ossetia, its being a part of Russia, or the ethnic ties between the Ossetians in Russia and the Ossetians Russia protects within Georgia.
 
I still believe that the Russians who wanted to stop the pipeline spurred the Ossesstians into taking a separist posture.

Saakashvili over reacted but he most likely took the Bsh support way beyond what Bush was giving. Bush gave words and Saakashvili actually thought that he would have American warplanes and partroopers supporting Georgia.

Bush also did not and does not understand the reality of geo politics or history.

Remeber until Bush became POTUS the only foreign country he went to was Mexico.

Mexico - my God idiot college students go to Mexico on sptirng break !!!

The guys go there for the girls soi they are not idiot just following their hormones.

You are aware that south ossetians have had sepratist tendancies since before the first south ossetia war in the early 90s arent you?
 
By the way, Russia has bombed civilians just like Georgia, in fact, Russia has bombed more of them, including reporters.
But that's just another fact, not an excuse.

:shock:

Btw, can you provide any confirmation of that outside of Georgian sources?
 
Anyone else amused by the fact that the Mail felt it critically important to note that "the findings were particularly critical of U.S. ally Georgia’s conduct."

:lol:


Like it or not, Georgia started the war because of the a President that has and had delusions of grandeur. It not only cost tons of lives but meant that Georgia lost 1/3 of its territory for good.

Did the Russians overreact? Sure, but then again they did not start the war, but they sure in hell would end on the winning side once committed and they made sure of that.

So you agree that if one country "provokes" a war, another country reacts by starting the violence, and the first country responds with superior force, conquering the second country's territory, the first country should get to keep that territory and is less responsible for the conflict?
 
George did not comot agression. Georgia was defending it's territorial rights.
.

Territorial rights to what?

When the USSR started to fall apart Georgia opted for independence; in accordance with the constitution if a Union republic leaves the Union all its autonomous republics have a right to determine their future by referendums. That's precisely what Abkhasia and S.Ossetia did, and they left Georgia.

They exist as independent states for as long as Georgia itself.
 
Are the Ossetinas that stupid? Do they not see what the barbaric animals the Russians have done to the Chechens ?


Perhaps Ossetians don't read enough of Western propaganda, and by living in or with Russia one can not see what "barbaric animals" Russians are.

Why don't you go to Chechnya and tell them how much they want to be "independent" (just don't forget to film their reaction :popcorn2: )?
 
Well there are 8- 10 million of my ancestors who were murdered through famine by the Russian bastards who take murder seriously.

.

Wah! Aren't we of "ukrainian" descent?

Care to set up a thread on Ukraine so I can demonstrate to you what Ukrainians who actually LIVE there think of Ukrainian diaspora as well as Ukraine and what they think of Russia? You might be a bit surprised.
 
I realize that that is speculation but based on my knowledge, history and understanding of the area that is is good theory.

And since your "knowledge" of their history is as foggy as your knowledge of "Ukrainian" history you may safely bin your "theory".

Ossetians are descendants of ancient Alans, Scythian and Sarmats. Their language is of Iranian group. They inhabited their lands from, well, the times of ancient Alans, really... There was time in history when Osetians dominated Iberia, one of Georgian states... In the middle of the 6-th century Byzantine Emperor put an Osetian in charge of Ksany, another Georgian province... At the time Georgian territories were controlled by Byzantia, Persia and Arabs.

Georgia as an independent all in one state was formed in the 11 cen. and flourished between 12 and 13 cen.-s.
In 13 cen. Georgian kingdom was divided onto few independent Georgian kingdoms that suffered from Tatar-Mongols. The start of major animosities between Georgians and Osetians dates back to 13 century.

Both Osetia and Georgian kingdoms suffered greatly from the wars with Iran, Turkey and other Caucasian nations. On few occasions Russia sent its army to help Georgians and Osetians.

In 1782 Georgian ruling class issued a decree discriminating Osetian people and prohibiting marriages between Georgians and Osetians.

In the 18 cen. Osetian ruling elite appealed to the Russian Empress to admit Osetia into Russian Empire. Their plea was granted.

In 1782 Georgian (Kartlo-Kahetian, since Georgia at the time consisted of few kingdoms) king asked Russia for protection (Georgievsky pact).
In 1795 Persian Shah Aga Khan Mohammed, dissatisfied that Irakly II failed to appear at his coronation and so expressed its independence, summed troops to Tbilisi. They rounded up civilian (80 000) and slaughtered them. In Tbilisi an image of Virgin Mary was brought to the bridge over the Kourou, where more than three thousand men were gathered and told to undress. Shah then ordered everyone to come to St. Mary and desecrate her image. Those who refused were beheaded and thrown into the river. Georgians who tried to flee Georgia were caught and massacred. Many Georgians loyal to Shah took part in the massacres. Georgian king Irakley wrote letters to Catherine II begging her to save Georgia. Three detachments of Russian troops (militia generals Burnasheva, Gudovicha, Suhotneva), located in the Caucasus, and an Ossetian detachment of 500 soldiers came to the aid of Georgia. In Petersburg, it was decided to urgently equip the ten thousandth army and send it to Tiflis. Mohammed Aga Khan retreated...
In 1797 Mohammed Aga Khan once again went on Tiflisu. Only his death saved the city.

In 1801 Russia fulfilled the request of Georgian king George XII and took Georgia into Russian Empire.

Since then both Osetia and Georgian provinces were pretty much run by their own ruling elites.

After the revolution, Georgian provinces were put together to form a republic of Georgia. In 1922 Osetia was divided (by Stalin) into two parts: N.Osetia was left in Russia, and S.Osetia was given to Georgia.
 
So you agree that if one country "provokes" a war, another country reacts by starting the violence, and the first country responds with superior force, conquering the second country's territory, the first country should get to keep that territory and is less responsible for the conflict?

I think I need a flowchart to analyze that hypothetical. :confused:
 
Yea. Man I remember the crap fest that came about on these boards, with right wingers defending Georgian aggression... tsk tsk.

S. Ossettia is recognized by the entire international community including the Russian Federation as Georgian territory. Having Russian troops on Georgian territory without Georgian permission is an act of war. Does the U.S. have the right to go to war with Iran because they won't grant Kurdish independence?
 
S. Ossettia is recognized by the entire international community including the Russian Federation as Georgian territory. Having Russian troops on Georgian territory without Georgian permission is an act of war. Does the U.S. have the right to go to war with Iran because they won't grant Kurdish independence?

Few things to remember:

1. Mongolia lived for 25 years prior to recognition by "international community" (whatever the hell it is). S.Ossetia as well as Abkhasia were NEVER part of Georgia; they were part of Georgian Soviet Socialist Republic, but that became history at the start of the 90-s.

2. Russian troops in S.Ossetia were part of a peacekeeping mission in which Georgia also participated.

3. When Georgia attacked, it killed Russian peacekeepers.

4. Some 90% of S.Ossetians at the start of the war were Russian citizens.
 
Wah! Aren't we of "ukrainian" descent?

Care to set up a thread on Ukraine so I can demonstrate to you what Ukrainians who actually LIVE there think of Ukrainian diaspora as well as Ukraine and what they think of Russia? You might be a bit surprised.

The Russified and Communized Eastern Ukrainian do have a warped and false understanding of the diaspora. Yet they have rights now days and they have the right to be wrong and some of them are good at being wrong.

I am well aware of what the various parts of Ukraine have for oppinions.

There is also about 16 - 17 % ethnic Russian minority in Ukraine so of course they are anti-Ukrainian and anti-West.

I have familiy in all parts of the country so I have an excellent pulse on what they think.

It varies from the intelligent thinking in the Western part of the country to the thinking of the fifth column Russian and traitors.
 
You are aware that south ossetians have had sepratist tendancies since before the first south ossetia war in the early 90s arent you?

Absolutely !! That area has had the ethnic hatreds and aspiration surpressed during the Soviet times. That surpression did nothing more than put an artificial lid on the violence and built a volcano that started to errupt after the EVIL Empire fell apart.

We all know the The Armenians and the Azizs had fights and there are pockets of each in the others territory.

There is hope that maybe Tatarshchina will errupt. Probably not but we can hope that unrest can come there also.

I pretty much have given up hope on the Kuban and the Don Cossack lands. That area has been too passive.

It would be good in unrest would spill over from Afghanistan or China into the Muslim areas of Russia.

The sad part is that Russia has pretty much killed off the quest for freedom of most minorities and many have "merged" into the Russian culture and processes.

Let us not forget that Russia has been killing off ethnic oppostion since the days of the Czars so except for the Muslim areas of Russia there is little live left for the fight for freedom.
 
And since your "knowledge" of their history is as foggy as your knowledge of "Ukrainian" history you may safely bin your "theory".

Ossetians are descendants of ancient Alans, Scythian and Sarmats. Their language is of Iranian group. They inhabited their lands from, well, the times of ancient Alans, really... There was time in history when Osetians dominated Iberia, one of Georgian states... In the middle of the 6-th century Byzantine Emperor put an Osetian in charge of Ksany, another Georgian province... At the time Georgian territories were controlled by Byzantia, Persia and Arabs.

Georgia as an independent all in one state was formed in the 11 cen. and flourished between 12 and 13 cen.-s.
In 13 cen. Georgian kingdom was divided onto few independent Georgian kingdoms that suffered from Tatar-Mongols. The start of major animosities between Georgians and Osetians dates back to 13 century.

Both Osetia and Georgian kingdoms suffered greatly from the wars with Iran, Turkey and other Caucasian nations. On few occasions Russia sent its army to help Georgians and Osetians.

In 1782 Georgian ruling class issued a decree discriminating Osetian people and prohibiting marriages between Georgians and Osetians.

In the 18 cen. Osetian ruling elite appealed to the Russian Empress to admit Osetia into Russian Empire. Their plea was granted.

In 1782 Georgian (Kartlo-Kahetian, since Georgia at the time consisted of few kingdoms) king asked Russia for protection (Georgievsky pact).
In 1795 Persian Shah Aga Khan Mohammed, dissatisfied that Irakly II failed to appear at his coronation and so expressed its independence, summed troops to Tbilisi. They rounded up civilian (80 000) and slaughtered them. In Tbilisi an image of Virgin Mary was brought to the bridge over the Kourou, where more than three thousand men were gathered and told to undress. Shah then ordered everyone to come to St. Mary and desecrate her image. Those who refused were beheaded and thrown into the river. Georgians who tried to flee Georgia were caught and massacred. Many Georgians loyal to Shah took part in the massacres. Georgian king Irakley wrote letters to Catherine II begging her to save Georgia. Three detachments of Russian troops (militia generals Burnasheva, Gudovicha, Suhotneva), located in the Caucasus, and an Ossetian detachment of 500 soldiers came to the aid of Georgia. In Petersburg, it was decided to urgently equip the ten thousandth army and send it to Tiflis. Mohammed Aga Khan retreated...
In 1797 Mohammed Aga Khan once again went on Tiflisu. Only his death saved the city.

In 1801 Russia fulfilled the request of Georgian king George XII and took Georgia into Russian Empire.

Since then both Osetia and Georgian provinces were pretty much run by their own ruling elites.

After the revolution, Georgian provinces were put together to form a republic of Georgia. In 1922 Osetia was divided (by Stalin) into two parts: N.Osetia was left in Russia, and S.Osetia was given to Georgia.

My knowledge of Ukrainian history is excellent since I was born and grew up in the West I was not poisoned by the lies of Soviet "education".
 
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