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Thread: Iran 'concealed nuclear facility'

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    Re: Iran 'concealed nuclear facility'

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnapostate View Post
    Perhaps an arms race wouldn't have been provoked to begin with if there wasn't a Middle East state that was in possession of an undeclared and concealed arsenal to begin with.
    Your Funny Undeclair what rock have you lived under, it's well know fact that not only do Israel have Nuke Weapons but they have them on a 24/7 DEFCON 2 Status.

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    Re: Iran 'concealed nuclear facility'

    Really? Israel has a declared and unconcealed nuclear arsenal?

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    Re: Iran 'concealed nuclear facility'

    Perhaps some folks here had better be a little more worried about an Iran armed with nukes and missles.

    There has been talk in the intel community about Iranian cargo vessels with hidden missle launchers, firing same from near the coast of CONUS. And if we dork around long enough, they'll have ICBM's and nukes small enough to fit on them.

    As for how they would not dare, it would be suicide...well some of them don't seem to care about that:

    As Iran rushes towards confrontation with the world over its nuclear programme, the question uppermost in the mind of western leaders is "What is moving its President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad to such recklessness?"

    Political analysts point to the fact that Iran feels strong because of high oil prices, while America has been weakened by the insurgency in Iraq.


    But listen carefully to the utterances of Mr Ahmadinejad - recently described by President George W Bush as an "odd man" - and there is another dimension, a religious messianism that, some suspect, is giving the Iranian leader a dangerous sense of divine mission.

    In November, the country was startled by a video showing Mr Ahmadinejad telling a cleric that he had felt the hand of God entrancing world leaders as he delivered a speech to the UN General Assembly last September.

    When an aircraft crashed in Teheran last month, killing 108 people, Mr Ahmadinejad promised an investigation. But he also thanked the dead, saying: "What is important is that they have shown the way to martyrdom which we must follow."

    The most remarkable aspect of Mr Ahmadinejad's piety is his devotion to the Hidden Imam, the Messiah-like figure of Shia Islam, and the president's belief that his government must prepare the country for his return.
    One of the first acts of Mr Ahmadinejad's government was to donate about 10 million to the Jamkaran mosque, a popular pilgrimage site where the pious come to drop messages to the Hidden Imam into a holy well.

    All streams of Islam believe in a divine saviour, known as the Mahdi, who will appear at the End of Days. A common rumour - denied by the government but widely believed - is that Mr Ahmadinejad and his cabinet have signed a "contract" pledging themselves to work for the return of the Mahdi and sent it to Jamkaran.
    Iran's dominant "Twelver" sect believes this will be Mohammed ibn Hasan, regarded as the 12th Imam, or righteous descendant of the Prophet Mohammad.

    He is said to have gone into "occlusion" in the ninth century, at the age of five. His return will be preceded by cosmic chaos, war and bloodshed. After a cataclysmic confrontation with evil and darkness, the Mahdi will lead the world to an era of universal peace.
    This is similar to the Christian vision of the Apocalypse. Indeed, the Hidden Imam is expected to return in the company of Jesus.

    Mr Ahmadinejad appears to believe that these events are close at hand and that ordinary mortals can influence the divine timetable.

    The prospect of such a man obtaining nuclear weapons is worrying. The unspoken question is this: is Mr Ahmadinejad now tempting a clash with the West because he feels safe in the belief of the imminent return of the Hidden Imam? Worse, might he be trying to provoke chaos in the hope of hastening his reappearance?
    The 49-year-old Mr Ahmadinejad, a former top engineering student, member of the Revolutionary Guards and mayor of Teheran, overturned Iranian politics after unexpectedly winning last June's presidential elections.

    The main rift is no longer between "reformists" and "hardliners", but between the clerical establishment and Mr Ahmadinejad's brand of revolutionary populism and superstition.

    Its most remarkable manifestation came with Mr Ahmadinejad's international debut, his speech to the United Nations.

    World leaders had expected a conciliatory proposal to defuse the nuclear crisis after Teheran had restarted another part of its nuclear programme in August.

    Instead, they heard the president speak in apocalyptic terms of Iran struggling against an evil West that sought to promote "state terrorism", impose "the logic of the dark ages" and divide the world into "light and dark countries".

    The speech ended with the messianic appeal to God to "hasten the emergence of your last repository, the Promised One, that perfect and pure human being, the one that will fill this world with justice and peace".

    In a video distributed by an Iranian web site in November, Mr Ahmadinejad described how one of his Iranian colleagues had claimed to have seen a glow of light around the president as he began his speech to the UN.

    "I felt it myself too," Mr Ahmadinejad recounts. "I felt that all of a sudden the atmosphere changed there. And for 27-28 minutes all the leaders did not blinkIt's not an exaggeration, because I was looking.

    "They were astonished, as if a hand held them there and made them sit. It had opened their eyes and ears for the message of the Islamic Republic."

    Western officials said the real reason for any open-eyed stares from delegates was that "they couldn't believe what they were hearing from Ahmadinejad".

    Their sneaking suspicion is that Iran's president actually relishes a clash with the West in the conviction that it would rekindle the spirit of the Islamic revolution and - who knows - speed up the arrival of the Hidden Imam.
    'Divine mission' driving Iran's new leader - Telegraph

    TEHRAN, Iran (AP) Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said Wednesday that Israel is dying and that its 60th anniversary celebrations are an attempt to prevent its "annihilation."
    He spoke hours after President Bush arrived in Israel for the anniversary celebrations.

    "The Zionist (Israeli) regime is dying," said Ahmadinejad during a speech in northern Iran. "The criminals assume that by holding celebrations ... they can save the sinister Zionist regime from death and annihilation."
    Ahmadinejad used an Arabic word, ismihlal, that can also be translated as destruction, death and collapse.

    Iran doesn't recognize Israel, and Ahmadinejad has repeatedly called for Israel's destruction. Threatening exchanges between Iran and Israel have intensified since 2005, when Ahmadinejad said in a speech that Israel will one day be "wiped off the map." The Iranian leader has also described the Holocaust as a "myth."

    "Nations of the region hate this criminal fabricated regime (Israel) and will uproot this fabricated regime if the smallest and shortest opportunity is given to them," Ahmadinejad said Wednesday in an address broadcast live on state television.

    Israel considers Iran a serious threat because of its support for Hamas and Hezbollah militants, its nuclear program and its arsenal of long-range missiles, which can be fitted with nuclear warheads and are capable of striking the Jewish state.

    Tehran is equipped with Shahab-3 missiles, which have a range of up to 1,250 miles. Israel is about 625 miles west of Iran.

    Ahmadinejad says Israel doomed - USATODAY.com


    Some people need to realize that the leadership of Iran is not composed of rational Western materialists, who contemplate profit/loss before every move, but to a large degree is peopled by religious fanatics, some of whom have stated that it wouldn't matter if every man woman and child in Iran died in some global nuclear holocaust, if that brought on the return of the 12th Imam.

    MAD (mutually assured destruction) counted on the rationality of both sides in the conflict...

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    Re: Iran 'concealed nuclear facility'

    I think spamming one thread with this was more than enough.

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    Re: Iran 'concealed nuclear facility'

    If Iran is developing nukes in secret, then it's to balance power with Israel. Iran is looking out for its sovereignty just like any other country. What the U.S. has to say about who is deserving of nuclear weapons and who isn't is irrelevant to me, as U.S. foreign policy is as inconsistent as the passing wind. If we care so much about the disarmament of Iran, then we should be concerned about the disarmament of the Middle East as a whole. Since we're not, and we are myopically focusing on Iran just because our Western leaders tell us to, things are going to continue unfolding the way they are.

    I really don't believe Iran wants a nuclear holocaust. It just wants nuclear deterrence, and I don't blame it. Look at all of the Western campaigns happpening around it. You would want guaranteed protection too. That Iran is a theocracy has no relevance to this fact.

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    Re: Iran 'concealed nuclear facility'

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    If Iran is developing nukes in secret, then it's to balance power with Israel. Iran is looking out for its sovereignty just like any other country. What the U.S. has to say about who is deserving of nuclear weapons and who isn't is irrelevant to me, as U.S. foreign policy is as inconsistent as the passing wind. If we care so much about the disarmament of Iran, then we should be concerned about the disarmament of the Middle East as a whole. Since we're not, and we are myopically focusing on Iran just because our Western leaders tell us to, things are going to continue unfolding the way they are.

    I really don't believe Iran wants a nuclear holocaust. It just wants nuclear deterrence, and I don't blame it. Look at all of the Western campaigns happpening around it. You would want guaranteed protection too. That Iran is a theocracy has no relevance to this fact.
    So,

    1) You support the proliferation of nuclear weapons for anyone who wishes to possess them.
    2) You believe a regime who openly supports terrorism to achieve their desired goals should have them and will be responsible with them.\
    3) You believe the possession of nuclear weapons by Iran will bring less conflict and more peace to the region.
    Last edited by scourge99; 09-28-09 at 03:48 AM.
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    Re: Iran 'concealed nuclear facility'

    Quote Originally Posted by scourge99 View Post
    So,

    1) You support the proliferation of nuclear weapons for anyone who wishes to possess them.
    2) You believe a regime who openly supports terrorism to achieve their desired goals should have them and will be responsible with them.\
    3) You believe the possession of nuclear weapons by Iran will bring less conflict and more peace to the region.
    Yes, obviously I believe all of that.

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    Re: Iran 'concealed nuclear facility'

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    1) You support the proliferation of nuclear weapons for anyone who wishes to possess them.
    2) You believe a regime who openly supports terrorism to achieve their desired goals should have them and will be responsible with them.\
    3) You believe the possession of nuclear weapons by Iran will bring less conflict and more peace to the region.
    Yes, obviously I believe all of that.
    Then you don't believe any of those are likely consequences? Why or why not?
    If you believe in the Supernatural then you can become a millionaire!

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    Re: Iran 'concealed nuclear facility'

    Quote Originally Posted by scourge99 View Post
    Then you don't believe any of those are likely consequences? Why or why not?
    Sorry, I'll try to be a little less hostile this time.

    1) Why should any country including the US turn a blind eye to Iran developing nuclear weapons? Wouldn't it be best to address their concerns in just about any other manner?

    2) Do you believe the proliferation of nuclear weapons is a good thing or bad thing?

    3) Do you believe the proliferation of nuclear weapons in the region will increase stability, peace and prosperity or decrease it?
    If you believe in the Supernatural then you can become a millionaire!

    Questioning or criticizing another's core beliefs is inadvertently perceived as offensive and rude.

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    Re: Iran 'concealed nuclear facility'

    Quote Originally Posted by scourge99 View Post
    Sorry, I'll try to be a little less hostile this time.
    Thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by scourge99 View Post
    1) Why should any country including the US turn a blind eye to Iran developing nuclear weapons? Wouldn't it be best to address their concerns in just about any other manner?
    I think dialogue over nuclear weapons is important, but I don't think U.S. foreign policy should be the driving force behind the UN policy on the pursuit of nuclear sanctions, as it currently is. As long as the U.S. is in bed with Israel, its position is far too biased. Furthermore, after Iraq the CIA lost a great deal of credibility.

    The only point that is of intrinsic value to me is that Iran signed the non-proliferation treaty, so according to its own voice it is against its own possession of nuclear weapons. Any other standard to me is irrelevant.

    If the atomic agency can prove Iran has weapons or is developing them, and it hasn't, then I'll consider the options.

    Quote Originally Posted by scourge99 View Post
    2) Do you believe the proliferation of nuclear weapons is a good thing or bad thing?
    I believe it's universally bad no matter what nation has them, but that, simultaneously, we cannot always control who develops them. There are also aggravating factors. For example, the Security Council powers have set the standard of only granting nations with nuclear arms the power of the veto. I've always been an advocate of inviting nations like Germany and Japan to have a seat on the council to offset this impression.

    Israel is, of course, the other factor. As long as Israel has nukes in the basement, Iran will want them too. That's POLISCI 101.

    Quote Originally Posted by scourge99 View Post
    3) Do you believe the proliferation of nuclear weapons in the region will increase stability, peace and prosperity or decrease it?
    It depends on who has them at this point, but I think every power in the Middle East, without exception, is is not suited to have such weapons. That said, Israel has them, and Israel is backed by a world super power, and so other nations will want to balance that.

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