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Death toll rises to 8 in Southeast floods

Gibberish said:
So why the call for an Obama press conference in this case? Shouldn't any press conference come from the local governments?
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Yes, I'd say so.
 
Goobieman said:
Were you or were you not critical of GWB and FEMA regarding Katrina?
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I was critical of Bush and I was critical of the state and local. Failures happened on all levels. Now your turn to answer.
 
Screw Obama. Where's Sean Penn?!?!?


seanboat.jpg
 
the makeout hobo said:
I was critical of Bush and I was critical of the state and local. Failures happened on all levels. Now your turn to answer.
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I did answer.
FEMA did what it was supposed to do, about as well as it could be expected to do it, given the size and scope of the disaster. The vast majority of the emergency management failures were at the state and local level.
 
Goobieman said:
I did answer.
FEMA did what it was supposed to do, about as well as it could be expected to do it, given the size and scope of the disaster. The vast majority of the emergency management failures were at the state and local level.
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"The agency dispatched only 7 of its 28 urban search and rescue teams to the area before the storm hit and sent no workers at all into New Orleans until after the hurricane passed on Monday, Aug. 29."

"Rather than initiate relief efforts — buses, food, troops, diesel fuel, rescue boats — the agency waited for specific requests from state and local officials."

"Hundreds of firefighters, who responded to a nationwide call for help in the disaster, were held by the federal agency in Atlanta for days of training on community relations and sexual harassment before being sent on to the devastated area."

"FEMA would not let the trucks unload," Mr. Vines said in an interview. "The drivers were stuck for several days on the side of the road about 10 miles from Camp Beauregard. FEMA said we had to have a 'tasker number.' What in the world is a tasker number? I have no idea. It's just paperwork, and it's ridiculous."
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http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/11/national/nationalspecial/11response.html?_r=1&ei=5094&en=ce371f0e0587100b&hp=&ex=1126497600&partner=homepage&pagewanted=all

"FEMA had already stockpiled for immediate distribution 2.7 million liters of water, 1.3 million meals ready to eat and 17 million pounds of ice, a Department of Homeland Security official said. But Louisiana received a relatively small portion of the supplies; for example, Alabama got more than five times as much water for distribution. 'It was what they would move for a normal hurricane — business as usual versus a superstorm,' concluded Mark Ghilarducci, a former FEMA official now working as a consultant for Blanco."

"Around midnight, at the last of the day's many conference calls, local officials ticked off their final requests for FEMA and the state. Maestri specifically asked for medical units, mortuary units, ice, water, power and National Guard troops. 'We laid it all out,' he recalled. 'And then we sat here for five days waiting. Nothing!'""

"'We were all watching the evacuation,' Maj. Gen. Richard Rowe, Northcom's top operations officer, recalled. 'We knew that it would be among the worst storms ever to hit the United States.' But on Monday, the only request the U.S. military received from FEMA was for a half-dozen helicopters."

"On Thursday, after FEMA took over the evacuation, aviation director Roy A. Williams complained that 'we are packed with evacuees and the planes are not being loaded and there are gaps of two or three hours when no planes are arriving.' Eventually, he started fielding 'calls from airlines saying, "Well, we are being told by FEMA that you don't need any planes." And of course we need planes. I had thousands of people on the concourses.'"
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The Steady Buildup to a City's Chaos

That enough of a start for ways FEMA failed? I mean, does this surprise anyone, seeing as the head of FEMA had no background in disaster management?
 
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the makeout hobo said:
That enough of a start for ways FEMA failed? I mean, does this surprise anyone, seeing as the head of FEMA had no background in disaster management?
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Not sure how any of this negates anything in my response.
 
the makeout hobo said:
That doesn't, everything else I posted does.
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I said:

FEMA did what it was supposed to do, about as well as it could be expected to do it, given the size and scope of the disaster.
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What did you post that negates that assertion?
Especially given that YOU said "I mean, does this surprise anyone, seeing as the head of FEMA had no background in disaster management"
 
I posted

"The agency dispatched only 7 of its 28 urban search and rescue teams to the area before the storm hit and sent no workers at all into New Orleans until after the hurricane passed on Monday, Aug. 29."

"Rather than initiate relief efforts — buses, food, troops, diesel fuel, rescue boats — the agency waited for specific requests from state and local officials."

"Hundreds of firefighters, who responded to a nationwide call for help in the disaster, were held by the federal agency in Atlanta for days of training on community relations and sexual harassment before being sent on to the devastated area."

"FEMA would not let the trucks unload," Mr. Vines said in an interview. "The drivers were stuck for several days on the side of the road about 10 miles from Camp Beauregard. FEMA said we had to have a 'tasker number.' What in the world is a tasker number? I have no idea. It's just paperwork, and it's ridiculous."

"FEMA had already stockpiled for immediate distribution 2.7 million liters of water, 1.3 million meals ready to eat and 17 million pounds of ice, a Department of Homeland Security official said. But Louisiana received a relatively small portion of the supplies; for example, Alabama got more than five times as much water for distribution. 'It was what they would move for a normal hurricane — business as usual versus a superstorm,' concluded Mark Ghilarducci, a former FEMA official now working as a consultant for Blanco."

"Around midnight, at the last of the day's many conference calls, local officials ticked off their final requests for FEMA and the state. Maestri specifically asked for medical units, mortuary units, ice, water, power and National Guard troops. 'We laid it all out,' he recalled. 'And then we sat here for five days waiting. Nothing!'""

"'We were all watching the evacuation,' Maj. Gen. Richard Rowe, Northcom's top operations officer, recalled. 'We knew that it would be among the worst storms ever to hit the United States.' But on Monday, the only request the U.S. military received from FEMA was for a half-dozen helicopters."

"On Thursday, after FEMA took over the evacuation, aviation director Roy A. Williams complained that 'we are packed with evacuees and the planes are not being loaded and there are gaps of two or three hours when no planes are arriving.' Eventually, he started fielding 'calls from airlines saying, "Well, we are being told by FEMA that you don't need any planes." And of course we need planes. I had thousands of people on the concourses.'"


All ways FEMA failed.
 
the makeout hobo said:
I posted
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I saw what you posted, the first time you posted it.

None of these (perceived and ancedotal) "failures" in any way indicates that FEMA did NOT do what it was supposed to do, about as well as it could be expected to do it, given the size and scope of the disaster.

Unless, of course, you want to argue that, regardless of circumstance, FEMA should do -everything- right and make -no- mistakes, systemically or individually.
 
Goobieman said:
I saw what you posted, the first time you posted it.

None of these (perceived and ancedotal) "failures" in any way indicates that FEMA did NOT do what it was supposed to do, about as well as it could be expected to do it, given the size and scope of the disaster.

Unless, of course, you want to argue that, regardless of circumstance, FEMA should do -everything- right and make -no- mistakes, systemically or individually.
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So you think it's no big deal that FEMA could have sent out more SAR teams and didn't, or that they waited for state and local orders before taking initiative? Or that they focused on pointless training instead of sending firefighters where they needed to be? Or that they put in pointless bureaucracy? Or that they didn't effectively distribute supplies? Or that they ignored requests? Or that they didn't request enough from the military?

I see lots of very big mistakes here, ones that are not excusable.
 
the makeout hobo said:
I see lots of very big mistakes here, ones that are not excusable.
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That's your opinion. So...?

As I said:

Unless you want to argue that, regardless of circumstance, FEMA should do -everything- right and make -no- mistakes, systemically or individually, your citation of ancedotes doesnt in any way indicate that FEMA did NOT do what it was supposed to do, about as well as it could be expected to do it, given the size and scope of the disaster.

You do agree that no organization the size of FEMA faced with a disaster the size of Katrina could possibly to EVERYTHING right -- right?
 
Goobieman said:
That's your opinion. So...?

As I said:

Unless you want to argue that, regardless of circumstance, FEMA should do -everything- right and make -no- mistakes, systemically or individually, your citation of ancedotes doesnt in any way indicate that FEMA did NOT do what it was supposed to do, about as well as it could be expected to do it, given the size and scope of the disaster.

You do agree that no organization the size of FEMA faced with a disaster the size of Katrina could possibly to EVERYTHING right -- right?
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Let me ask you, what would you have seen as an unacceptable failure on FEMA's side?
 
the makeout hobo said:
Let me ask you, what would you have seen as an unacceptable failure on FEMA's side?
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I'm sorry -- I asked YOU:
You do agree that no organization the size of FEMA faced with a disaster the size of Katrina could possibly to EVERYTHING right -- right?
 
Goobieman said:
I'm sorry -- I asked YOU:
You do agree that no organization the size of FEMA faced with a disaster the size of Katrina could possibly to EVERYTHING right -- right?
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I do admit that it's likely that FEMA would make at least a few mistakes, but I consider the scope and number of their mistakes to be unacceptable.

Now your turn to answer: what would you have seen as an unacceptable failure on FEMA's side?
 
the makeout hobo said:
I do admit that it's likely that FEMA would make at least a few mistakes, but I consider the scope and number of their mistakes to be unacceptable.
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And I do not.
So...?
 
the makeout hobo said:
What would you consider unacceptable?
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Them not doing the best they could, given the circumstances.

The problem here is that people have unrealistic expectations of what government agencies 'should' be able to do.
 
Goobieman said:
Them not doing the best they could, given the circumstances.

The problem here is that people have unrealistic expectations of what government agencies 'should' be able to do.
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I'm asking for something concrete. Because I personally don't consider only sending in some of your SAR teams, or not asking for every single thing you can from the military doing your best.
 
the makeout hobo said:
I'm asking for something concrete. Because I personally don't consider only sending in some of your SAR teams, or not asking for every single thing you can from the military doing your best.
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And thus, my previous statement:
The problem here is that people have unrealistic expectations of what government agencies 'should' be able to do.
 
Goobieman said:
And thus, my previous statement:
The problem here is that people have unrealistic expectations of what government agencies 'should' be able to do.
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I think you're just trying to write off completely over-the-top and unacceptable failures. They should have been prepared for something like this, but they weren't. I mean, how do you not have all of your SAR teams ready?
 
the makeout hobo said:
I think you're just trying to write off completely over-the-top and unacceptable failures.
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I think you call them "completely over-the-top and unacceptable failures" because you have an unrealistic expectation of what government agencies 'should' be able to do.

For instance:
"The agency dispatched only 7 of its 28 urban search and rescue teams to the area before the storm hit and sent no workers at all into New Orleans until after the hurricane passed on Monday, Aug. 29."
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Allocating 25% of total, nation-wide capacity to a single event seems perfectly rerasonable ot me. So does waiting to send them in until the event happens, lest the SAR teams need a SAR tem to rescue them.

"Rather than initiate relief efforts — buses, food, troops, diesel fuel, rescue boats — the agency waited for specific requests from state and local officials."
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Thats because that's what FEMA does -- backs up and assist state and local agnecies, as these agencies are more knowledgeable of that they need and where. If there was a delay in asking for resources, it isnt FEMAs fault; if FEMA moves before resources are asked for, they do so with little idea of what is needed where.

"Hundreds of firefighters, who responded to a nationwide call for help in the disaster, were held by the federal agency in Atlanta for days of training on community relations and sexual harassment before being sent on to the devastated area."
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Thank you, political correctness.
Everyone would be happy if they had not been delayed by this training, right up until the point someone cried 'improprer behavior" -- and then the question would be 'why were these people set losse w/o the proper trainng'.

"FEMA would not let the trucks unload," Mr. Vines said in an interview. "The drivers were stuck for several days on the side of the road about 10 miles from Camp Beauregard. FEMA said we had to have a 'tasker number.' What in the world is a tasker number? I have no idea. It's just paperwork, and it's ridiculous."
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So... what were the rtucks hauling, and where should it go?
W/o the proper paperwork, how do yo umake that determination?
W/o that determination, ddo you just dump the material and send the truck elsewhere?
This is an example of necessary logistical organization not failure.

et cetera...

So all of these so-called failures are failures only for those with the beforementioned unrealistic expectation of what government agencies 'should' be able to do.
 
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Goobieman said:
I think you call them "completely over-the-top and unacceptable failures" because you have an unrealistic expectation of what government agencies 'should' be able to do.
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You mean, like their job? Why shouldn't I expect them to have all of their SAR teams at the gulf?
 
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